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Butch

United airlines..PR disaster

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In one way I see this as being a win for all fflyers. I note that all airlines that I travel with tend to get slack and lazy and the crews forget why they are there. This is a wake up call for airlines generally that flyers have rights and should be treated decently. It also reminds all of us that there will be a camera waiting to take down every gory detail. This is a win-win for consumers and a billion dollar hit at the valuation of the airline.

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I'm pretty old, so I remember when United was good. It was, originally, an airline that loved to fly -- its leadership and organizational culture appropriately tuned to building its business and market share based on a wonderful flying experience. (You still see traces of it in part of their marketing -- the sounds of Rhapsody in Blue behind scenes of a skyward bound 787).

 

Those days are long gone, its management structure and culture focused like a laser beam solely on metrics on the cost side. It's why the fucked this up so badly.

 

The simple, textbook solution to the problem was merely to reverse auction its compensation offers up until the first four ticketed passengers bit. $800 "united bucks" not high enough? We're offering $900. Not enough? $1,000. etc. etc. All the way until you find your first four volunteers.

 

But apparently, after the $800 "united bucks" didn't raise four volunteers, the gate agent was either not empowered by some random cost-side policy to go higher or didn't feel compelled to work with ticketed revenue-generating passengers to find four real volunteers and decided that United Airlines should be run like it is staffed by a bunch of douche bags.

 

It took three separate statements, including a totally tone deaf one from its CEO, to get it right. Lost huge $$ in market cap.

 

All to save a few hundred "united bucks".

 

It's too bad that market consolidation has hit the U.S. aviation industry. UAL deserves to be punished in the marketplace by consumers. But, too often, there are too few choices in specific routes. So United will survive, lowering the expecation curve for the American flying public. A pox on their house.

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Yes the flight is operated by Republic, but they are operating it for United, so are representing United..... if anything both United and Republic are at fault for this PR disaster.

United should have kept increasing the cash offers. However, once the decsion was made to forcibly remove passenegrs, 3 went peacefully and 1 choose to refuse.

It amazes me that passengers do not understand the the contract they agree to, BUT NEVER READ, when they buy their tickets. This contract is written to protect the airline and not the passneger. The airline can refuse service for a number of reasons withonly limited liabilty. In this case however the nuclear option is getting the coverage. United is blamed for everything but once they called the police to remove the passenger, they were not involved in the escalation. The Police dragged the passenger off the plane not airline employees.

Edited by ttk

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P.S. Regarding overbooking.

 

Airlines and hotels seem to be the only industries where overbooking is okay.

 

I live in Washington, DC and I own a pair of season tickets to the Washington Wizards NBA team. There are 20,308 seats in the Verizon Center configured for basketball. The Wizards cannot sell more than 20,308 tickets to a game.

 

This is the way it should be for airlines too. If you have "x" seats on some 787, that's as many paid tickets that you should be able to sell.

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United should have kept increasing the cash offers. However, once the decsion was made to forcibly remove passenegrs, 3 went peacefully and 1 choose to refuse.

It amazes me that passengers do not understand the the contract they agree to, BUT NEVER READ, when they buy their tickets. This contract is written to protect the airline and not the passneger. The airline can refuse service for a number of reasons withonly limited liabilty. In this case however the nuclear option is getting the coverage. United is blamed for everything but once they called the police to remove the passenger, they were not involved in the escalation. The Police dragged the passenger off the plane not airline employees.

 

 

That's because United Airlines violated section 21 of their own contract of carriage. This is a legal document and the passenger was not violating anything associated with UAL contract of carriage that would have gotten him kicked off.

 

Perhaps you'd allow me to link that contract of carriage for you here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx

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That's because United Airlines violated section 21 of their own contract of carriage. This is a legal document and the passenger was not violating anything associated with UAL contract of carriage that would have gotten him kicked off.

 

Perhaps you'd allow me to link that contract of carriage for you here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx

Amazing that some think the traveller has to read that document. We leave it to lawyers and lawmakers to ensure that the terms are fair and reasonable and hope for the best.

Just because United claimed they can toss you off a plane, doesn't mean they should do it.

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Amazing that some think the traveller has to read that document. We leave it to lawyers and lawmakers to ensure that the terms are fair and reasonable and hope for the best.

Just because United claimed they can toss you off a plane, doesn't mean they should do it.

 

 

And that's the entire point. United's own contract of carriage didn't allow for them to throw the guy off the plane because he wasn't violating any of their rules contained in section 21 of their own COC. (I don't get the minority of folks online who are defending United, btw).

 

Last point -- the "united bucks" they offered people to leave the plane violated FAA rules. By rule passengers bumped must be given cold, hard cash (the amount dependent on how long of a delay they experience getting to their ultimate destination).

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I think it was very poor planning on United's part for 'booking' their four employees on that plane at such a late time. It would look as if the plane was already booked full up and THEN United thought they should add their 4 workers that needed flights. United can always kick off booked passengers so they don't really have to plan ahead for moving their employees around from airport to airport; just wait until the last minute.

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United should have kept increasing the cash offers. However, once the decsion was made to forcibly remove passenegrs, 3 went peacefully and 1 choose to refuse.

It amazes me that passengers do not understand the the contract they agree to, BUT NEVER READ, when they buy their tickets. This contract is written to protect the airline and not the passneger. The airline can refuse service for a number of reasons withonly limited liabilty. In this case however the nuclear option is getting the coverage. United is blamed for everything but once they called the police to remove the passenger, they were not involved in the escalation. The Police dragged the passenger off the plane not airline employees.

 

Republic could have been told by United not to offer more than $800.... Hence they resorted to involving the police to forcibly remove a "passenger/customer" who refused to get off the plane.

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If he had been bumped at the gate, that would have been one thing. If I had been issued a boarding pass, and boarded, I would be a lot more upset whether or the legal regime was changed or not.

 

Wonder if he had checked any luggage as my understanding is that if you don't make the flight your bags must come off for security reasons.

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If he had been bumped at the gate, that would have been one thing. If I had been issued a boarding pass, and boarded, I would be a lot more upset whether or the legal regime was changed or not.

 

Wonder if he had checked any luggage as my understanding is that if you don't make the flight your bags must come off for security reasons.

Correct on latter point... although USA guys really don't like to check bags. Overhead lockers are always packed.

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Correct on latter point... although USA guys really don't like to check bags. Overhead lockers are always packed.

I never could figure that one out. 45 years of taking commercial flights and I have yet to lose a bag. Very few times the bags got there later than I did.

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I can't understand why United left it until after the plane was fully loaded before they chose to remove passengers. I can understand if they had told 4 people they couldn't board and then put their crew on. I've been on flights several times that passengers who had already checked in were asked to go on a later flight, and were offered compensation. But to wait till everyone is in there seats is crazy.

 

Newspaper reports here say that half the other passengers on the flight refused to fly and walked off the plane. The plane was unloaded completely, and then reboarded, there was a 3 hour delay from the original departure time till it actually flew.

 

I refuse to ever fly QANTAs because of the shit way they handled a 17 hour delay in Sydney once, but no one was manhandled, we were simply ignored for hours at a time. I think lots will never fly United again. Its very easy to lose customers, very hard to get them back.

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P.S. Regarding overbooking.

 

Airlines and hotels seem to be the only industries where overbooking is okay.

 

I live in Washington, DC and I own a pair of season tickets to the Washington Wizards NBA team. There are 20,308 seats in the Verizon Center configured for basketball. The Wizards cannot sell more than 20,308 tickets to a game.

 

This is the way it should be for airlines too. If you have "x" seats on some 787, that's as many paid tickets that you should be able to sell.

 

If airlines and hotels only sold non-refundable seats and rooms, the analogy with tickets to a game would hold true. But airlines sell tickets that are fully refundable and hotels sell rooms that don't require a deposit, so there's a chance some seats or rooms may go unused which represents lost revenue. So for those industries it makes economic sense to overbook to maximize profits.

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If airlines and hotels only sold non-refundable seats and rooms, the analogy with tickets to a game would hold true. But airlines sell tickets that are fully refundable and hotels sell rooms that don't require a deposit, so there's a chance some seats or rooms may go unused which represents lost revenue. So for those industries it makes economic sense to overbook to maximize profits.

 

Is it true that hotels sell blocks of tickets to internet travel sites like Agoda or do the hotels just give those sites a commission for rooms booked?

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I think he got what he deserved. Should have followed crew member instructions.

 

Seems he is also into trading drugs for gay sex

 

http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/

 

 

Don't be a cunt.

 

He'll get what he deserves when the United legal team sign off his eight-figure settlement.

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I never could figure that one out. 45 years of taking commercial flights and I have yet to lose a bag. Very few times the bags got there later than I did.

 

 

I've never had a bag "lost" permanently, but I've had my luggage misrouted or whatever numerous times. In fact, until fairly recently, there was never a time that I flew Delta when they didn't misplace my bags. It's almost like part of the "service." "Fly with us and your luggage will arrive a day after you do." The only time I've had no trouble is if I'm on a direct non-stop flight.

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I've never had a bag "lost" permanently, but I've had my luggage misrouted or whatever numerous times. In fact, until fairly recently, there was never a time that I flew Delta when they didn't misplace my bags. It's almost like part of the "service." "Fly with us and your luggage will arrive a day after you do." The only time I've had no trouble is if I'm on a direct non-stop flight.

 

When I travel I have a carryon that has a change of clothes and everything of importance. If my main luggage is delayed or lost I a OK.

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Most airlines have a set procedure for deciding who does not fly and it is not a "random computer selection" . It is based on frequent flyer status, price paid, check-in time ...... I do not know which is most important, but I would guess that all 4 passengers removed were low fare no status and late check-ins.

 

 

 

Or to put it another way, stinking pigs. :rolleyes:

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The CEO is doing morning TV. Said on GMA that United will never again use Police to get passangers off. The other two wanna be cops have been relieved or benched until a further review is done by the agency in charge.

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I can't understand why United left it until after the plane was fully loaded before they chose to remove passengers. I can understand if they had told 4 people they couldn't board and then put their crew on. I've been on flights several times that passengers who had already checked in were asked to go on a later flight, and were offered compensation. But to wait till everyone is in there seats is crazy.

 

Newspaper reports here say that half the other passengers on the flight refused to fly and walked off the plane. The plane was unloaded completely, and then reboarded, there was a 3 hour delay from the original departure time till it actually flew.

 

I refuse to ever fly QANTAs because of the shit way they handled a 17 hour delay in Sydney once, but no one was manhandled, we were simply ignored for hours at a time. I think lots will never fly United again. Its very easy to lose customers, very hard to get them back.

 

There was no reason that this could not have been addressed before they allowed boarding. They could not get the count right. When the dust settled there were empty seats. At least that is what I heard today. Can anyone verify?

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