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Butch

Red wine - Do you drink it when you're out?

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Similar to you, but lately I am enjoying a few glasses of Cabernet Sauvignon and Cabernet Merlot in the evenings at home, after drinking beer during the day. What else can I do, cooped up like this?  ! Oh, I know, I'll have a few Rum and Cokes and a few Scotches and a few Vodkas, as well....

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Posted (edited)

Have been consuming copious amounts of red wine during our isolation.  Making a serious dent in our liquor cabinet and wine racks.  Gone through a few very high end bottles that I normally save for special occasions figuring "better drink this in case we're going to die".  Costco has been delivering most of our groceries, replenishing wine, and spirits.  

Here in America one goes to college to learn how to drink beer and tequila.  I was positively a scholar, received a PhD in tequila but pretty much gave it up after school.  Graduated to fine scotch and other whiskies.  The last decade or so high end tequilas have become very popular here.  2-3 years ago my circle of friends began to pursue the worm.  Have developed a taste for various reposados,  anejos and other exotic mezcals.  

Unfortunately my old body does not handle spirits as well as it used to.  Minimize spirits, stick with wine.  Trying very hard to maintain the 5 o'clock rule.  But many days have fallen back on "It's always 5 o'clock somewhere in the British Empire".

Edited by BigusDicus

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Had Italian food and a couple of glasses of cabernet last night. I prefer a beer. Hard liquor never again. The last time was in Pattaya. Tonight the rest of the wine most likely. 

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They say that the disecerning wine drinker always ends up preferring red wine, but I just can't get on wth it.  White for me every time, preferrably champagne, if i can afford it, if not, a nice crisp dry  will do. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Pine Tree said:

They say that the disecerning wine drinker always ends up preferring red wine, but I just can't get on wth it.  White for me every time, preferrably champagne, if i can afford it, if not, a nice crisp dry  will do. 

I  was a Reisling fan when I was young. Somehow I transitioned to reds along the way. I like Zins a lot, Merlot and a Cab with Italian food when I make it at home or in former times when I went out.

Another white I used to drink was Gewurtztraminer. A lot of whites are too dry for my palate. Others are too fruity.

My ex and I went in 1984 to West Germany and my aunt and uncle took us to wineries on both the Rhein and the Mosel rivers. If you like whites, it's a good place to go.

https://winefolly.com/deep-dive/mosel-valley-wine-guide/

For reds I have never been fortunate to go to areas in France like Burgundy. I have had Italian reds while in Austria. Those were more table wines but much better than America produced at the time. Things like Chianti. Some work colleagues introduced me to Borolos. Argentina and Chile make some good reds (Malbec). Austrailia is known for Shiraz (Syrah).

There's is a lot of good wine out these days but the industry has changed. Wines used to require additional aging before they were mature. As I understand it now, at least for American reds, bottles are ready to drink when you purchase them and they don't improve sitting in the bottle over time. I am not an expert though. I do tend to drink wines immediately, if at all (Italian food nights). I tend to prefer IPAs to wine. I can drink a bottle of wine in an evening if not careful so I discipline myself. I will make enough Italian food for two nights and enjoy the wine with both meals. Better for my liver.

edited to correct content and spelling

Edited by midlifecrisis

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39 minutes ago, midlifecrisis said:

I  was a Reisling fan when I was young. Somehow I transitioned to reds along the way. I like Zins a lot, Merlot and a Cab with Italian food when I make it at home or in former times when I went out.

Another white I used to drink was Gewurtztraminer. A lot of whites are too dry for my palate. Others are too fruity.

My ex and I went in 1984 to West Germany and my aunt and uncle took us to wineries on both the Rhein and the Mosel rivers. If you like whites, it's a good place to go.

https://winefolly.com/deep-dive/mosel-valley-wine-guide/

For reds I have never been fortunate to go to areas in France like Burgundy. I have had Italian reds while in Austria. Those were more table wines but much better than America produced at the time. Things like Chianti. Some work colleagues introduced me to Bolas. Argentina and Chile make some good reds (Malbec). Austrailia is known for Shiraz (Syrah).

There's is a lot of good wine out these days but the industry has changed. Wines used to require additional aging before they were mature. As I understand it now, at least for American reds, bottles are ready to drink when you purchase them and they don't improve sitting in the bottle over time. I am not an expert though. I do tend to drink wines immediately, if at all (italian food night). I tend to prefer IPAs to wine. I can drink a bottle of wine in an evening if not careful so I discipline myself. I will make enough Italian food for two nights and enjoy the wine with both meals. Better for my liver.

Thanks for that.  For me, it's that very dry, almost desicating  effect that I like and find very refreshing,  especially when drunk with food, but I know that it's not for everyone.  

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Many of the more affordable reds tends to be blends and are drinkable at purchase.  Many of the more quality reds sold are drinkable at purchase - but benefit from some aging.  For instance a cab is typically sold at the 3 year point.  IMO cabs need 5 years or more.  We drink a lot of red zinfandel.  Does not need as much aging.  Some of the classic Bordeaux's are drinkable at 5 years but develop with age.  10 to 20 years can do wonders. 

I can get into the Wine Spectator site.  I imagine they have something in their library that addresses this.  Stay tuned.... 

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Here is an interesting perspective.  MLC is probably correct when he said bottles do not need to aged like they used to.  I still stand by my statement regarding most cabs are best after 5 years.  But I realize there are some bottles on my racks that need to be drunk.  Oh my poor liver....

 

"Today, we're consistently presented with red wines—especially the greatest, most exalted and expensive examples—that are annually crafted from uniformly ripe grapes, thanks to "green harvests." A green harvest is when, a month or so before the actual harvest, less-ripe clusters are eliminated. These unwanted clusters are literally thrown on the ground."

 

https://www.winespectator.com/articles/is-it-worth-it-to-age-wines-anymore-47848

Is It Worth It to Age Wines Anymore?

Wines have changed and so have our palates
  •  
Jan 8, 2013

My greatest wine dream—and I'll bet it's yours, too—was a wine cellar. Not just the actual cool-temperature space, but one that was filled. I dreamed of a cellar so full that I could easily forget about whole cases of wine for years at a time, the better to let them age to a fantasized perfection.

That dream came true. It took me years—decades, really—to achieve. And it cost me a disproportionate amount of my limited and precious discretionary income, especially when I was only just starting out as a writer. I was motivated, obsessed even, by a vision of what might be called futuristic beauty. How soaringly beautiful it would be in 15 or 20 years!

I wasn't wrong—then. But I wouldn't be right for today. What's changed? Surely me, of course. I've had decades of wine drinking to discover that my fantasized wine beauty only rarely became a reality. But I had to find that out for myself. And I'm glad I did.

But it isn't all personal, either. In recent years it's become obvious that an ever greater number of wines that once absolutely required extended aging no longer do.

Simply put, most of today's fine wines—not all, mind you—will reach a point of diminishing returns on aging after as few as five years of additional cellaring after release. Stretch that to a full 10 years of additional aging and I daresay you will have embraced fully 99 percent of all the world's wines, never mind how renowned or expensive.

I can hear you already. What about this famous red Bordeaux? Or that fabled red Burgundy? What about grand cru Chablis? Or a great Brunello di Montalcino? Or Barolo?

Well, what about them? Yes, all of those wines and still others, such as German and Alsatian Rieslings, Napa Valley Cabernets and Hungarian Tokajis, reward aging.

But let me tell you something: With only a handful of ultratraditionalist exceptions, the modern versions of even these wines don't require anywhere near as much aging as their forebears.

This doesn't mean that today's versions of these wines are lesser. Rather, it's that fine wines have universally changed, sometimes radically so. And our tastes have changed, too.

Today, we're consistently presented with red wines—especially the greatest, most exalted and expensive examples—that are annually crafted from uniformly ripe grapes, thanks to "green harvests." A green harvest is when, a month or so before the actual harvest, less-ripe clusters are eliminated. These unwanted clusters are literally thrown on the ground.

Green harvesting is an utterly new phenomenon in wine history. Really, it was unknown before the 1980s and didn't become near-universal until well into the 1990s.

The modern rigor of "green harvesting" should not be underestimated in its effect. It has transformed the quality of fine red wines nearly everywhere, ensuring more uniformly ripe grapes with rounder, softer, finer tannins. (I'm not talking here about today's ultraripe late picking, which is another matter altogether.)

Of course, cleaner winemaking, more scrupulous attention to fermentation methods that minimize tannins, more careful filtering and a host of other winemaking and cellaring techniques (not least, the ubiquity of small oak barrels) have also dramatically transformed wines.

The bottom line: Today's wines are far more drinkable, far more gratifying, far more rewarding when drunk younger than their counterparts of 20 years ago.

Can they age as long? Yes, I think they can. But that's not the issue. Rather, the key question is: Do they need to? I think not. Only a very small handful of even the best wines truly require more than five years aging—10 years tops—in a cool space.

Because while many of today's wines can easily age far longer than that, the issue is not endurance. Rather, it's transformation. And because of the reasons cited previously, we're now able to see that desired transformation sooner in a wine's lifespan.

Will the transformation continue? In many cases, yes. But it does reach a point—and sooner than was once traditional—of diminishing returns.

The critical element is that where once we had to wait patiently to get even a glimmer of initially hidden depths (thanks to harsh tannins, unwanted oxidation and unclean flavors), modern wine offers us a fuller, richer, more rewarding view sooner. Think of an old oil painting carefully and respectfully cleaned of an obscuring varnish, allowing both color and texture to leap out almost three-dimensionally, and you've got it.

Of course there are wines today that stubbornly withhold their favors, such as Vintage Port and those few white wines that do not go through malolactic fermentation, such as Trimbach Rieslings, Mayacamas Vineyards Chardonnay or the white Burgundies of Maison Louis Jadot.

Such white wines, which retain all of their hard malic acid, unsoftened by malolactic, or secondary, fermentation, structurally require a lot more aging before they even approach something akin to maturity. The malic acid serves to slow aging and makes the wine less approachable in youth.

But such wines are outliers. Even traditionally formidable wines, such as Barolo, are far more drinkable and genuinely rewarding younger than ever in their long history.

One other aspect of cellaring wine must be recognized. It is us. We are emotionally invested in cellaring wines. If we've been patient a long time in hopes of a better wine future, then the long-aged, long-anticipated wine surely must be better for the wait.

This was never put better than by the great English wine writer P. Morton Shand (1895–1960) who, uncharacteristically for an upper-class Englishman of his era, loathed Vintage Port: "A properly matured Port is rightly considered unequalled as the test of the pretensions of a county family to proper pride, patient manly endurance, Christian self-denial, and true British tenacity."

I do own (and buy) wines that would very likely further transform with more than five years aging. But I now increasingly find that the additional time is more "valuable" than the sensory return on that investment.

My hard-won experience with aging wines has now answered to my satisfaction the question about the absolute need for long aging; namely, that the great majority of wines today, in the great majority of vintages, don't really reward that "expensive" extra five or 10 years beyond the five or 10 years of aging you've already bestowed.

I am now convinced that today's wine lover is well advised to buy fine wines, cellar them in a cool space for five years—10 years, tops—and then drink them in secure confidence that the great majority of their full-dimensional goodness is available to you.

After that, it's all just fantasy—and the very real likelihood of an increasingly diminishing return on your already delayed gratification.

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55 minutes ago, midlifecrisis said:

I  was a Reisling fan when I was young. Somehow I transitioned to reds along the way. I like Zins a lot, Merlot and a Cab with Italian food when I make it at home or in former times when I went out.

Another white I used to drink was Gewurtztraminer. A lot of whites are too dry for my palate. Others are too fruity.

My ex and I went in 1984 to West Germany and my aunt and uncle took us to wineries on both the Rhein and the Mosel rivers. If you like whites, it's a good place to go.

https://winefolly.com/deep-dive/mosel-valley-wine-guide/

For reds I have never been fortunate to go to areas in France like Burgundy. I have had Italian reds while in Austria. Those were more table wines but much better than America produced at the time. Things like Chianti. Some work colleagues introduced me to Bolas. Argentina and Chile make some good reds (Malbec). Austrailia is known for Shiraz (Syrah).

There's is a lot of good wine out these days but the industry has changed. Wines used to require additional aging before they were mature. As I understand it now, at least for American reds, bottles are ready to drink when you purchase them and they don't improve sitting in the bottle over time. I am not an expert though. I do tend to drink wines immediately, if at all (italian food night). I tend to prefer IPAs to wine. I can drink a bottle of wine in an evening if not careful so I discipline myself. I will make enough Italian food for two nights and enjoy the wine with both meals. Better for my liver.

Wow so much in there to comment on..

I was in Cochem in 1984 and Rudesheim ...bloody excellent guzzling whites in the region. For reds when I was in Munster I found a couple of Hungarian wines that I liked..

As for Gewurtzraminer, I discovered it in the local CO-OP in Dorset!! Was a lovely hot day and my Mum fancied sitting out on the lawn for a nice summer salad so off I popped into the co-op and it was the only wine left in the fridge at 7 quid a bottle. I only bought one but after I sipped it I drove back and emptied the fridge!! Here in Pattaya , Wine Connection in RGP has an excellent bottle for 1,000 baht..go there for lunch special pizza and you won't regret it..

I worked in Argentina for 6 months and I'll be fucked if I could find a Malbec that I liked despite the locals getting me to try their favourites!

The best red I have tasted in Pattaya was in Bite Me Bistro and was a Barolo Reserva (3,000 a bottle I think) absolutely stunning red wine. Me and Peter tried the "normal Barolo" but it wasn't a patch on the reserva ,,, so I bought the last bottle and quaffed it down and ended up dancing Isaan mo lam .... it is on video somewhere !!!

 

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I am posting a link below with a video.  Not sure if it behind the Wine Spectator paywall or not.  Please let me know if you can play the video?

https://www.winespectator.com/video/play/id/3YbvxVJ2/title/wine-101-how-to-buy-wine

Wine 101: How to Buy Wine

Put your wine-buying anxiety to rest with our quick and easy guide to getting the most out of shopping for wine at your friendly local retailer. Get pointers on what questions to ask, how to get the best bottle for your buck and more. We visited Total Wine & More in River Edge, N.J., for some tips from the pros.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pine Tree said:

Thanks for that.  For me, it's that very dry, almost desicating  effect that I like and find very refreshing,  especially when drunk with food, but I know that it's not for everyone.  

I think Sauvignon blanc might suit you but I rellay have not had more than a glass or two in my life.

"Most Sauvignon Blanc wines are prepared totally dry, while a few producers tend to leave a small amount of residual sugar to add a richer consistency to the wine. The major fruit essences of Sauvignon Blanc are green apple, lime, white peach and passion fruit."

57 minutes ago, Bullfrog said:

Wow so much in there to comment on..

I was in Cochem in 1984 and Rudesheim ...bloody excellent guzzling whites in the region. For reds when I was in Munster I found a couple of Hungarian wines that I liked..

As for Gewurtzraminer, I discovered it in the local CO-OP in Dorset!! Was a lovely hot day and my Mum fancied sitting out on the lawn for a nice summer salad so off I popped into the co-op and it was the only wine left in the fridge at 7 quid a bottle. I only bought one but after I sipped it I drove back and emptied the fridge!! Here in Pattaya , Wine Connection in RGP has an excellent bottle for 1,000 baht..go there for lunch special pizza and you won't regret it..

I worked in Argentina for 6 months and I'll be fucked if I could find a Malbec that I liked despite the locals getting me to try their favourites!

The best red I have tasted in Pattaya was in Bite Me Bistro and was a Barolo Reserva (3,000 a bottle I think) absolutely stunning red wine. Me and Peter tried the "normal Barolo" but it wasn't a patch on the reserva ,,, so I bought the last bottle and quaffed it down and ended up dancing Isaan mo lam .... it is on video somewhere !!!

 

Borolo! I screwed that up. Too early for my brain. I will fix that.

Edited by midlifecrisis

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Can you get a good vintage port outside BKK?  I have never seen it anywhere in Thailand and with blue cheese, its perfect. 

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4 hours ago, Pine Tree said:

Can you get a good vintage port outside BKK?  I have never seen it anywhere in Thailand and with blue cheese, its perfect. 

I expect Villa in Pattaya carry it.

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4 hours ago, Pine Tree said:

Can you get a good vintage port outside BKK?  I have never seen it anywhere in Thailand and with blue cheese, its perfect. 

Possibly Wine Connection in The Avenue or Royal Garden, but never looked for it myself.

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At home ,The UK, I drink red almost all of the time and 90% of that is Australian Shiraz.with the odd Merlot chucked in because its on offer. I drink what tastes good to me and suits my palate. I don't go in for fancy expensive wines and won't drink the rubbish cheap reds that are normal for Pattaya so almost never drink wine in Thailand, if only because of the poor quality and inflated prices. I do however remember drinking a cheap red Thai wine I bought in the Big C ou near the Dolphin many years ago that was called something like Black Knight or Dark  Knight and was sold on the table right outside the Big C, they also had a white Called very unimaginatively White Knight ,and  whilst not the greatest wine I have ever tasted , it was at least good value for money and was perfectly palatable. Came back the next year and never found it again . It was back in the days when I stayed the whole summer so I remember buying a couple of cases and drank the lot as it was very nice with food  or just bread and cheese. Anyone else remember this stuff.

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At home ,The UK, I drink red almost all of the time and 90% of that is Australian Shiraz.with the odd Merlot chucked in because its on offer. I drink what tastes good to me and suits my palate. I don't go in for fancy expensive wines and won't drink the rubbish cheap reds that are normal for Pattaya so almost never drink wine in Thailand, if only because of the poor quality and inflated prices. I do however remember drinking a cheap red Thai wine I bought in the Big C ou near the Dolphin many years ago that was called something like Black Knight or Dark  Knight and was sold on the table right outside the Big C, they also had a white Called very unimaginatively White Knight ,and  whilst not the greatest wine I have ever tasted , it was at least good value for money and was perfectly palatable. Came back the next year and never found it again . It was back in the days when I stayed the whole summer so I remember buying a couple of cases and drank the lot as it was very nice with food  or just bread and cheese. Anyone else remember this stuff.
One thing that I will be happy to recommend is Australian reds. We make excellent white wine in NZ but I have said many times that "A cheap Australian red beats a good New Zealand one". Having said that I have real problems with drinking Australian whites as they seem to overdo the preservatives. I guess that this is part of the price you pay for the fact that the biggest wine sales in the UK travel from Australia and are cheaper than I can buy them here from 2000 kilometres away!

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

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I wouldn't know a good wine from a bad wine. That said I never drink wine when out and about. Once in a while, rarely, if I see boxes of wine, I will buy a box to keep at home. I usually buy red wine but white wine is OK too. I usually put a few ice cubes in the wine. I know that would horrify knowledgeable wine drinkers.

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Because of exorbitant import duty, most wine sold in Thailand is ‘fruit wine’, fermented from a variety of base ingredients other than grapes.  The connoisseurs don’t consider it real wine.  I prefer whisky because quality wine is too expensive in Thailand, import duty is 300-400%.  Boxed fruit wine is affectionately known as cardboardeaux
 

https://www.thebigchilli.com/news/fruit-wine-is-it-for-real

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Gary said:

I wouldn't know a good wine from a bad wine. That said I never drink wine when out and about. Once in a while, rarely, if I see boxes of wine, I will buy a box to keep at home. I usually buy red wine but white wine is OK too. I usually put a few ice cubes in the wine. I know that would horrify knowledgeable wine drinkers.

I certainly used to chill the red wine my Mrs liked before the prices got silly here in Thailand. The recommendation of 'room temperature' was likely more for  a Northern Europe 20-25 degrees C, than the 32-34 we get here. 

Edited by jacko

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jacko said:

I certainly used to chill the red wine my Mrs liked before the prices got silly here in Thailand. The recommendation of 'room temperature' was likely more for  a Northern Europe 20-25 degrees C, than the 32-34 we get here. 

The guys from work that taught me a lot about wine were purists. Some might call them snobs but they were good men. They wouldn't just open a bottle and let it breath, they poured the whole bottle into a decanter for more surface area. The thought of chilling a red might have given them apoplexy.

Although I understand where they were coming from, it really comes down to how you enjoy something. It's like two people who go to a sporting event. One is screaming his head off and the other sits quietly keeping score.

Different strokes.

edit: My late German uncle drank room temperature beer at home. Keller beer temp. He visited us in America and liked the colder beer so he bought a little regrigerator for his cellar just for beer.

Edited by midlifecrisis

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I can't find any place that serves Mad Dog 20/20 Red Grape so I have to suffer with a Cab Sav or Merlot with my Porterhouse.  Drink wine in a bar? Not that I wouldn't but I don't think I ever have.

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My friend and i I enjoyed wine. Lived in a house in Annapolis and hosted after hours parties from the hospital. Rhones were our favorites. Remember a lovely Nurse tipping the bottle. "Whats the content"?     Why did i not marry her.   Sake for me now 

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I would love to drink red wine, but more so when at home. One of the advantages of being in the UK was the large selection of wines from all over the world, and sometimes at very cheap prices. Try this one then that one, have another bottle of that as liked it previously. It is expensive in Thailand. As to drinking it when out in the evenings, not a chance, very very likely it would be adulterated here. It would give me a fair old headache too.

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