Bakwahn

I think the thesis that some of you are advocating here, that politics (the mayor and the city council of Pattaya supported by the government in Bangkok) wants to get rid of sex tourism, is wrong. It is true - which you regret so much - that fewer and fewer unaccompanied men come from Western countries to Pattaya. I mean those who come because of the Sanuk. At the same time, the number of Western tourists who come because of the warmth, the sun, the beaches and the tourist attractions - married couples, families, retired couples, etc. - is also falling. What can be the reason for the decline of western tourists? You deplore the catastrophic exchange rate of some Western currencies (dollar, pound, euro) against the very strong Baht. That is correct. The exchange rate is also an expression of a country's economic performance. Western countries are weakening. Thailand, on the other hand, has experienced an enormous positive economic development in the last 30 years. You must reflect the positive economic development of this country in the last decades. Thailand has been changed from a Third World Country into a well emerging nation! The Thai economy has millions of new jobs in the industry and the service sector; well paid for Thai standards; and the economy is growing. So there are more jobs and better paid jobs for millions of Thais. This also has an impact on the bar scene and nightlife in Pattaya. Prices exploded, went through the roof; for beer, beverages, barfines, girls. Today Pattaya is not a cheap pleasure any more; it changes in a place for “2-weeks-millionaires”. The cheap, affordable sanuk is gone, faded away. The times where you could draw on unlimited resources are gone forever. Today you need 280 – 300 Dollar to buy the same as 25 or 15 years ago for about 110 Dollar. Many of us can't and don't want to afford this pleasure anymore. Live from Biergarten Stoffeln - Düsseldorf Bakwahn

A few reflections on obvious mistakes made by Pattaya's political leadership (mayor and city council) and the Thai tourism industry, for which the Bangkok government is responsible. I am referring to what some of you have reported. 1. bad investments, shopping malls I agree with you. Thai investors, businessmen and managers have repeatedly made blatant mistakes in their investments. There are far too many overpriced shopping malls in Pattaya. Who should buy there? Here the mayor and the city council of Pattaya may have promised the potential investors too much; e.g. customers with purchasing power from the western countries and above all the emerging countries of East Asia. But this cannot explain the many blatant bad decisions and bad investments of experienced bankers and managers. 2. Chinese mass tourism I absolutely agree with what you say about Chinese package tourism. Thailand hardly benefits at all from this form of tourism. Most of the money stays in the accounts of the Chinese tour operators. The travel operators offers the Chinese customer a complete range during the tour: travel, accommodation, catering, leisure and cultural activities etc. In the evening the Chinese tourists spend hardly any money in bars, restaurants, entertainment venues. Thailand earns only a few pennies from this Chinese tourism. Live from Biergarten Stoffeln - Düsseldorf Bakwahn

To the development of Pattaya. I refer to contributions from Butch, Jacko, teelack, Yogi100, Bushcraft and some others. I'll start with the theme "music" in the bars; e.g. mentioned by Yogi100 and Keyman. Many bar and gogo bar operators have no knowledge and no experience at all in the gastronomic field. They open a bar without any gastronomic concept or idea! They don't have a clear and sophisticated business model. They don't have any clue. In general: Every beer bar and every Gogo bar needs a well thought-out gastronomic concept, a sophisticated business model to be successful. What kind of guests should come to the bar? Asians, Japanese and Koreans? Or a Western audience? Mainly local expats? Or should come tourists from all over the world to the bar, by chance, casual customers. This concept also includes the music to be played. For example: a) do we play hard rock only or b) tender ballads and mainstream hits and pop or c) do we play two third international hits and oldies and one third Thai songs (only examples). The volume is included to such considerations and the DJs have to respect the decision of the management. What kind of beverages, what beer do we offer? What prices for drinks? Many other questions must be answered before you invest a lot of money in a bar venture. The bar can only survive and operate successful when there is a good idea, a gastronomic concept. There are a few fairly successful Gogos in Pattaya; for example a few Gogos in the Soi 15 WS, What's Up and Saphire or Sky Fall in the WS, Windmill Diamond Plaza to name a few. I've seen many bars dying. Not enough customers, too few sales, too many costs. Live from Biergarten Stoffeln - Düsseldorf Bakwahn

And then there are the particularly clever guys who come to Pattaya especially in low season. The girls in the bars are in a bad way, they are desperately looking for guests and customers. Now the guys can negotiate much better, cheaper prices with the girls. The number of freelancers is big and here you get prices that are clearly below the prices that are demanded and paid in the time of the high season. That's what guys on German Pattayaboards report again and again. Live from Duesseldorf Bakwahn

Yeah, that's a good question. Many employees traditionally go on holiday in the summer months of June, July and August. Many big companies - e.g. the big car companies in Germany - take company holidays for 4 weeks during this time. Therefore many employees have to plan their own holidays according to their company. This explains why some holidaymakers spend their holidays in LOS during these months. But it seems to me that this is only a minority. The majority of German Thailand holidaymakers come in the autumn and winter months, i.e. from October to the end of March. Then there is cold wet weather in Europe, plus short days and long nights. In SOA, on the other hand, there is a dry season with a lot of blue sky and sunshine. Many sun-hungry and heat-seeking Germans spend their winter holidays in Siam; mostly three, four weeks. Many German pensioners, pensioner couples overwinter in Siam. Live from Duesseldorf Bakwahn

Why do so few western sanuk tourists come in low seasons? The extended question must be: Why do fewer and fewer western tourists come to Thailand even in high season? The reasons have all been mentioned: * The bad exchange rate; strong Baht, weak US-Dollar, Pound, Euro etc. * The high prices for drinks in the bars * The extremely expensive prices for Ladydrinks, barfines and for the girls Let's be honest: The average Western tourist can hardly afford such prices any more. For a Pattaya day with beach life on the day, dinner and supper, in the evening barhopping with drinks and ladydrinks, then barfine and a girl for the night you need about 300 US Dollars or 280 Euros. Please round about. The exact height depends on the individual eating and drinking habits of the individual. Also this discussion - this thread - is carried by a certain sobriety and disappointment. There have been info- and discussion-boards on the internet like this one for about 25 years now. The spirit of optimism, the expectant atmosphere and the rosy euphoria of the first 15 years have given way to sobriety and disillusion. In the years 1993-1996 many discussion boards like this one started with lots of energy and optimism. In the last 8 – 5 years or so, a certain “disenchantment of the Siam sanuk-scene” has been gaining ground. The good old cheap times are gone forever and with these vanished times a New Sobriety coupled with a depressed atmosphere rule now. And all boards are not as agile, as lively as before. That affects all boards, both German and international English. Many boards died in the meantime. Live from Duesseldorf Bakwahn

Many thanks to everyone for the very informative and factual discussion about - how shall I say - the decline of Pattaya as a holiday destination for Western - mainly male - holidaymakers. Why do less and less western Sanuk tourists come to Pattaya during the months of the low season (April - September)? That is the question of this thread. In the last 5 years I wrote several articles about the “Goetterdaemmerung” for various international board and two German boards. For about 6 – 7 – 8 years we are witnesses of the unstoppable swansong, the doom, the Armageddon, the Goetterdaemmerung of the P4P scene for western Sanuk-Tourists. Sanuk is no longer affordable and enjoyable for many of us, for many guys of the western world. Bkk, Pattaya, Phuket etc. is too expensive for western men with normal average income. The Pattaya barowners have to adjust to a shrinking number of Western Sanuk tourists. The part of the Sanuk scene aimed at a western male clientele will continue to shrink. The part of the Sanuk scene for Asian tourists - Japanese, Koreans, solvent Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis and other liquid Asians will grow. In Pattaya there is a slow but steady and unstoppable structural change under way, Western Sanuk tourists are displaced by Asians. Very slowly but steadily. Slowly, guys, slowly. Live from Duesseldorf Bakwahn