Boeing 747 Advanced

[Samsonite 181]

The 747 Advanced:

Looks like it is just a matter of time before Boeing makes it official.

If I remember correctly the passenger version will be stretched about 12 feet and the freighter version approximately 17 feet.

 

BOEING FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF NEXT GENERATION AIRCRAFT

 

 

Luxembourg, 20th July 2005. - The Board of Directors of Cargolux has authorized Management to enter into negotiations with Boeing for the procurement of a minimum of 10 Boeing B747 Advanced Freighters (ADV F) for delivery beginning as of 2009.

 

The Board decision is the culmination of a thorough and lengthy selection process. For some time, Cargolux had encouraged aircraft and engine manufacturers to build a new generation aircraft offering better economics and environmental protection.

 

More recently, Cargolux had launched an in-depth analysis of all factors relevant to the decision, leading to the selection of a successor aircraft to the B747-400F currently operated by the company.

The B747-ADV freighter will combine state-of-the-art airframe and engine technology. Environmentally, this aircraft will meet all future noise limitations and assure lowest emissions and allow Cargolux to maintain its profitability in an environment marked by very high fuel prices.

 

Cargolux President and CEO Uli Ogiermann stated: “ Management’s recommendation to the Board is the result of a very thorough analysis during which we assessed which aircraft was best suited to our fleet renewal in the next decade. The fact that we enter into negotiations with the Boeing company is based purely on commercial considerations, supported by the environmental benefits the B747-ADV F offers.”

 

http://www.cargolux.com/press/press-release.htm

[echster 1]

It's a matter of when, not if. Boeing has stated it would need 2 established carriers to order the B747Adv before they would commit to it. I think it could be official in the next couple of months. I think another order would come from one or more of the following: Lufthansa, Cathay Pacific, Japan Airlines, Qantas, Singapore, China Airlines.

 

Also, Boeing is already in negotiations for 30-35 B744F/ERFs. They may be converted to the B747Adv freighter.

[Samsonite 181]

I was reading a long discussion on the merits, or lack thereof, of the A380 as a freighter (http://www.luchtzak.be) and was surprised to learn the design does not lend itself well to that purpose. It would appear that the 747F remains the preferred large commerical cargo aircraft.

[torrenova 644]

I was thinking that yesterday after reading this article. Perhaps a marketing point missed by airbus there ?

 

Can't wait to get on one of those new super jumbos though. Might have to fly Singapore Airlines to get a feel.

[CheshireTom 1,377]

I was reading a long discussion on the merits, or lack thereof, of the A380 as a freighter (http://www.luchtzak.be) and was surprised to learn the design does not lend itself well to that purpose.  It would appear that the 747F remains the preferred large commerical cargo aircraft.

Somebody needs to tell that to the guys at UPS and Fedex ..............

 

Didn't Boeing mock the A380 saying there was no market for larger aircraft?

 

Tom

Edited July 25, 2005 by CheshireTom

[Samsonite 181]

Somebody needs to tell that to the guys at UPS and Fedex .............. 

 

Didn't Boeing mock the A380 saying there was no market for larger aircraft? 

 

Tom

Yes, FedEx and UPS have both placed orders. FedEx wants it, but UPS wanted out of a deal to buy, I think it was, the A300F and Airbus refused, but made them a deal to take their deposit money and apply it toward a purchase of the A380. Also, according to the article I mentioned above, companies like FedEx and UPS are just two of a few types of companies, if not the only types of companies, to which the A380 as a freigher would appeal, due to the type of cargo they transport. Let's see if I can find that thread...hang on....

 

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/gener...d.main/2229364/

 

Here from one contributor:

"...The A380F is limited to less than 8. lb/cu ft by Airbus' own numbers so that even though you have all this great volume, the amount of payload you can actually carry is limited by the lower density.

Further, even with this lower density, the A380F does have a slight over-all payload advantage over the 747-Adv by about 6.5 tonnes, the problem is this comes at the cost of 80 tonnes higher OEW. And that's weight that you fly around every day, every flight regardless of if you are able to fill it to capacity and take advantage of the slightly higher 6.5 tonne payload.

Bottom line...my view is the A380F has some serious short-comings as a main-line freighter. It does pretty good as a package carrier where you can maximize usable volume with containers. And the package carriers ( FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc...) all tend to max out on volume before they max out on weight. Kind of makes sense of who's making a sizable investment in the A380F - only FedEx and UPS (and UPS even somewhat unwillingly!!)."

 

And from another contributor:

"It's hard to say whether UPS would have ordered the A380F if they didn't have this huge unfilled order for A300Fs for which they had paid deposits that they no longer wanted. UPS worked out a deal where they move the deposits for A300Fs over to the A380F and cancel 37 A300Fs."

 

The actual press release on the UPS purchase was posted in this thread and the language was not what you might call, "warm and fuzzy."

 

Airbus created a market for the A380, where a market didn't exist. Several years ago Boeing announced a stretched version of the 747, what they called at that time the, "747 X." No one stepped forward to place any orders, so the project was canceled.

Airbus can afford to build on spec as they are financially supported by Spain, France, Germany, and Britain. Boeing cannot afford to build an airplane until they have firm orders in hand. Of course, there is the argument that Boeing is supported by the U.S. Govt. by defense contracts, but as Boeing is the major aerospace contractor, the field of possible winners of a contract is quite narrow. Apples and oranges.

Now that Airbus has built the A380 and sold it by wheeling and dealing, but not enough yet to cover the cost of development, and their customer base has been able to see it and determine if it is suitable for their needs, several of the airlines have approached Boeing and asked them to build the "747 Advanced." Boeing's marketing research says there isn't a big enough market for the A380. They think the market lies in longer range smaller jets, 777-200ERs and LRs, 777-300s and 300ERs, and the 787, which will fly directly to passenger preferred designations without having to go through a "hub." The current surge in Boeing sales may prove them to be correct. A group at Northwestern (?) did a study on the market for the A380, which Boeing paid for, and the results, which they claim were not influenced by Boeing's pocket book, showed the A380 will lose 8 Billion dollars over it useful lifespan. It other words it will never pay for its development cost, and then some.

Edited July 25, 2005 by Samsonite

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Samsonite,

 

I'm well aware of the arguments put over by various pundits on discussion boards and I could pick and choose pro-Airbus comments from the multitude of A v B threads available, however, I've noticed that all that does is bring out folks deep-rooted prejudices.

 

Personally, I've flown on a multitude of Boeing and Airbus aircraft and for a traveller it boils down to how the airline operates the aircraft in terms of furbishment, service etc that counts, not whether the aircraft was assembled in Washington or Toulouse. I realise that you may be a trifle miffed that some European upstart came along to disrupt the US monopoly in the civilian aerospace market but that is no reason to start crying foul at every turn. At the end of the day, a little bit of healthy competition is good for the traveller.

 

Hopefully, we will get Thai doing a non-stop service to Manchester at the end of 2006/start of 2007 with one of their 777ERs. I'd be equally chuffed if they were doing it with an A340-600.

 

Tom

[Samsonite 181]

Tom,

Competiton is good. Definitely benefited the American car buyer.

Guess we will have to wait and see how it all "washes out" in the market place.

BTW, is there an English slang to American English dictionary available?

"chuffed"?????????????

Yes, a 777-200ER, 200LR, 300ER, and a 747-400 could easily make that range.

The 777-300...er.....maybe...... Probably not enough business from Manchester to warrant using a 747.

Edited July 25, 2005 by Samsonite

[echster 1]

Somebody needs to tell that to the guys at UPS and Fedex ..............

 

Didn't Boeing mock the A380 saying there was no market for larger aircraft?

 

Tom

I won't get into an A v. B conversation, but for the mission of hauling the mail, the B747F is preferred over the A380F. I don't know why, but I could speculate it's more easily filled and cheaper (when you associate other spending needed to change aircraft models).

 

As far as B mocking A and the market for larger aircraft, I wouldn't call it mocking. They went to airlines and said these are the aircraft now available, what do you see your airline buying in the next few years. There were not many airlines that need an aircraft to carry 450+ people. Those size aircraft can only accomodate routes that are hub-to-hub or domestic Japan.

[Tahoe_Bill 0]

Okay now I’m confused:

 

http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/chuffed

 

Is “chuffed†pleased, displeased (or maybe ambivalent)?

 

“Inquiring minds want to knowâ€.

[Tahoe_Bill 0]

Tom,

 

(I had to post the quirky dictionary definitions).

 

Any nonstop flight to BKK is a good thing, unfortunately I don’t expect to see it from Indianapolis (although we will be one of the 1st cities to see the FedEx A380 on a daily basis) or many other US Cities. Maybe the gods of the flight schedules will favor us with an ORD – BKK nonstop.

 

I agree with everyone that has commented that A vs B is very objective. I have my own preferences on US domestic short haul / long haul as well as International short haul / long haul. It is about a draw (even). Although IMHO the B777 is far superior to any other aircraft currently in service.

 

Kinda curious if the A380 will be profitable as I remember hearing in my youth that the 747 was “too big†and it would be a failure.

[CheshireTom 1,377]

echster,

 

I will avoid any A v B comments as well as I am a little bit biased since we build the Airbus wings up the road from me just outside Chester. I do think the arguments tended to get a bit polarised on the question of hub-to-hub or point-to-point and 10 years ago none of us were probably looking at Dubai, Doha and, to a lesser extent, Abu Dhabi emerging as major hubs.

 

I would agree that the best economy trip I've made was in the SQ 777ER from Manchester to Singapore but I don't know if that was down to Krisworld and the amazing SQ girls. Whatever the case, it was a very pleasant trip. In biz class the front section of Qatars two-class A330 suits me down to the ground but I could be tempted by Thai biz class if they put a 777ER on a non-stop MAN-BKK routing.

 

I did read an interesting article in the Times at the weekend that questioned the finances of air-to-air refuelling on long haul flights given the cost of fuel which came up with some good numbers. I think if it's good enough for Air Force One it would be good enough for me.

 

Thanks for your continued good info.

 

Regards,

 

Tom

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Is “chuffed” pleased, displeased (or maybe ambivalent)?

 

“Inquiring minds want to know”.

Bill,

 

Chuffed means pleased...........

 

Tom

[cowboy 0]

United is in negotiations with boeing right now for orders of the new 747 freighter. They are buying( leasing) an entire fleet. They have landing rights for china and intend to expand freight service in a big way. The are finally getting their heads on right. Unitede had pulled back from the freight market, but their landing rights in asia and the increasing asia economy made it obvious that there was to much money to be made not to get into it.

 

BTW part of united negotiations on the new 747 freighter is to get early delivery of 787s. The money is on asian flights. every notice how many first and business seats are filled on the flights between tokyo and BKK?