atlas2

Religion is a good and a bad thing,no question America would not have been 'discovered' quite the way it was, if not for Europe's Christians (forget which Pope,somebody go to wiki for me) wanting Columbus to find a way to out flank and open a new front on their Muslim competitors, who had control of all the trade routes and were squeezing Europe's pips. The 'battle' between opposing faiths is a long and bloody one. With the good guys and the bad guys constantly changing hats. And it ain't over yet 'Imagine no religion,it's easy if you try' Which, while I'm quoting Lennon............ Didn't he receive death threats from good Christian Americans for his words being taken as an insult to Jesus? All I'm echoing is the statement by made by many here before that nobody's hands are clean. I'm agreeing with Pastry's quotes (Though the Kill ones are Old Test). There's just no point in debating that any further. But............. Currently the fervour is with the Muslim religion. It represents a clear danger, with world wide ambition,(unlike the IRA). The future isn't a done deal. There will be choices.

Who's forgiven? I still won't go into a McDonalds............. Never forget, or forgive their generous Noraid donations. Don't obfuscate with the 'white skin' thing. Not relevant! The IRA simply had 'some' limits,that's all. There was not a little pragmatism amongst their ranks.......... Everyone saw how things changed after 9/11. America having it's own terrorist threat saw things differently. However I agree with everything else in your post. Nice to see you wave the flag sometimes. And I also agree, (when I put you on the spot) with your masterfully succinct..... 'IF' from Nidnoy's post As Kipling put it.... "If me auntie had bollocks she'd be me uncle."

I was thinking Royalty........... The Queen unifies Britain more than almost any PM can.

Got the meaning,got your point! Dangers change..... With the IRA, I'm only aware of Mountbatten being a target. There was some understanding that there were limits..(or maybe not), to who it would be counter-productive to kill..Certainly Edward Kennedy was safe as houses. I'll wait to see how Mr 'P' rationalises,dilutes,mitigates,criticises,condescends,belittles and crushes your post.........Until you pop back up like a plastic duck and do just the same to him. The thing is you both,but you in particular argue with integrity. I really get a sense of the concern you feel for your son's future. What I'm always staggered by is the certain knowledge that either of those 2 events would be met by completely opposite viewpoints and all stations in-between. A sizable portion of England would have the vapors about the horses!

I'm not going to get bogged down in this. I was just very pleased to see the BBC 'Intel squared'....'Is Europe failing its Muslims?' debate, where things that needed saying were said. One of the speakers said.........If there is one thing I'd like Muslims in Europe to understand now,as soon as possible is that they have no extra rights not to be insulted...And that a country where even your deepest feelings can trampled on is the only country worth living in. Worth watching www.intelligencesquared.

I see the BBC have an, 'Intelligence Squared Debate'. It's subject for discussion is, 'Is Europe Failing It's Muslims?' Should be interesting.

Yes I remember seeing a graph some years back that seemed to predict women matching and then overtaking men in the longer tack and marathon events. It hasn't happened yet............. Maybe the performance drugs and testosterone athletes of both sexes take make it difficult to assess the 'reality' of the situation........Throw in high altitude training blood transfusions 'et all' and I wonder why I watch. Tell you something......... about a year ago a young bloke, one of the pumped up, steroid enhanced, (by his own admission) muscle men in the condominium block where I live, got into an arm wrestling competition with a stringy Norwegian. Amidst the gritting of teeth and grunts of exertion came a loud,sickening 'snap'...... The brittle bones in 'Arnold's' arm had snapped in 2 places. Back on track. I don't see any reason,given a fair and level playing field why women can't compete..............Other than that they don't!

It's only informed opinion from both posters personal perspectives.......... You'll go round in circles. I suppose it begs the question if ladies are good enough they will be already represented in men's ice hockey,'soccer' basketball, football,rugby or even boxing. That they aren't means that they are not, currently strong or good enough,or that they are discriminated against,or that the pool of women playing in such sports is a shallow one..........That argument could be used to explain why in a neutral sports like snooker or darts that they haven't risen to men's competitive levels. However the 'pool' in women's 'Wiff-Waff', sorry table-tennis is enormous,particularly in Asian countries so......... In chess women regularly compete against men at the highest levels. The Polgar sisters from Hungary were coached from birth and scored high 'men's chess ratings and acquitted themselves well in tournaments but never got through the best of the best. ............Still as they say.....'Ginger Rodgers could do everything that Fred could do.............But backwards and in high heels!!'

Ok.......Just joking....... Sorry if it upset you.

I wouldn't say 4nic-eight is a mean man but.............He's waiting 30 mins for me to take him to Tuk Com therebye saving the 10 baht bus ride. I only want to take him to see the tears if he's told, 'he'll 'ave ta splash out like on't new shaver thinngy....And it's only 5 yrs old,practically brand new !!!!!

As the question seems to be answered already it is perhaps permissible to extend the 'Women in men's sports' theme that's arisen. Are the advantages always with the men? I played Sue Devoy at squash when she was ladies world champion. I won the first game and she slaughtered me in the next 3......Her superior fitness and skill increasingly took over and the game reached it's not unexpected conclusion............ But I was ranked low in my club's top 20.......... I believed then that If I could get a game off her, any of the top five at my club could have beaten her. I'll point out that my club wasn't even in the first division of the county league. However, today I wonder just how high Serena and Venus would rise in the men's Tennis? How far the world's best women would go in any sport even something like Pool/Snooker?

Yes well done the Aussies......... Mind you I've skied in Australia more than once.............Never skied in Britain though. Most of our water is either the runny kind or ice (as in Scotland) So not as incredible as you make out. But............. I admit I fear the worst whenever we take you lot on in anything. Even the two creatures on your national emblem cannot take a backward step!!

No black eyes....................... but I was 'knocked out' when my 'sort of' off and on girlfriend .........Handed me a large box,containing half a doz smaller ones.........Eventually coming to a 1 Baht gold chain for meeeeeee. I lost face....She's such a great girl

Another game another effective performance from the 'Boy' Nice to hear the United fans cheering Beckham. Glad I set my alarm for that one! Best Goalkeeper?............ Don't know but it's a bit of a problem position now!

"Hello kettle........this is the pot....you're black!" Or, "Wa da kow, Inao, ben eng!" Step back and take a look at your breast beating rants Joe. Just well meaning advice. I've looked at my posts over a month or so and decided they ain't worth the effort. Circular arguments that descend into all of the above is just a waste of my time. It has become an endless drudge. I know it isn't that to you. You seem to get something fulfilling from it all. That's fine and not (well not really) a criticism. Live and let live. If you look at my past posts you'll see I'm happy to admit to mistakes. Once to you, over only the 'possibility' that I had made a mistake regarding 'female circumcision in Pakistan' when I could have ignored, as you do, any corrections or stuck stubbornly to my guns. I apologized a second time regarding an 'accusation' before that you've got it in for England. I gave you then the benefit of doubt. Now I think I was wrong to do that. Answer a simple question: What is so 'bloody interesting' about the 'England is a cesspit' article that argues in-effect along the same lines of many of the English contributors on this board that you hold to task or ridicule? I promise to read your reply and allow you the final words. I'll leave you with a quote from the great Homer Simpson. To Marge,(in this case that's you Joe). Homer with his whining voice........" Oh Marge, you're as bad as me! But you used to be better than me.........That makes you worse."

yes I found the edit button.............same as you! Mind you apart from making that point............. If you want to know, also I re-read my post and thought what a total wanker! I'd got involved with this Muslim thread sometime ago because of the 'Wootton Basset' issue. Something about a bunch of scrounging, ungrateful, hair-suite harpies haranguing the decent and quintessentially English people of that village, while they were paying non-religious,non-political respect to the sons and daughters of Britain returning 'home' in a coffin, pushed a button and said to me, 'No you fucking don't! Not there!' Throughout all the subsequent posts, and the to-and-fro I tried to, 'wear my colours' while showing some respect for opposing viewpoints and retaining at least a smidgen of emotional detachment. Even though I realised fairly quickly the pointlessness of actual argument here. Somewhere along the line I became caught up in it all and started to take things 'seriously'....... as though it really mattered what I said on this 'Board' ..........which it don't. I began to add a little jibe here, a personal insult there, an undermining correction.........And before you know it total wankership!! I'm not putting down the average 'Varied poster' who enjoys a dib and dabble on topics all over the place and can benefit us with local knowledge or an informative personal experience. I joined this and other boards to glean exactly that sort information on Thailand. But, when thumbing through a board's pages I always gave the 'Key Board warriors' and their pointless rambling debates a wide berth! ....And now..... I'd become just that. I re-read my post and felt it was unbalanced and flawed, worst of all it was just plain unprovable 'High and Mighty' personal opinion about what I perceive as Joe's Anglophobia. That to me, and in the context of a fair number of other posts, it appeared he just couldn't resist having a dig and spouting 'England is a cesspit' from behind the safety of quotation marks and under the guise of it being a 'Bloody interesting article' Which it ain't and Joe knows that. ..........BUT....There's no point in me writing stuff like that. I have no authority, or business in doing so. And who cares anyway. So,that was the 'thread' where I 'lost the thread' and regretted it. I shall endeavour to be more circumspect and restrained and only, to quote Google, 'Do no evil' Mind you, just DON'T mention Wooten Basset.

Wonderful research!

I take your point which 'almost' makes me embarrassed to have to correct you. In your, 'the world you live in' rant, the 'Black hole of Calcutta' Which you referred too, and seemed to blame the British for, (when in fact they were the ones that were incarcerated, suffocated and trampled and killed), took place in 1756. The Indian massacre of 'Sandy Creek' which I was using to balance up another of your, I'm sure, unintended sneers at England happened over 100 years later in 1864. However, I was wrong about Black Kettle........He escaped with his bollocks intact. It was 'White Antelope's privates that were used to store 'tabbacy'

I agree.......... I can't think of any either. Joe and Pastry's main arguments are, in my opinion quite straightforward. They maintain not all Muslims are to blame, and so they should not be tarred with the same brush. And no one race/religion has a perfect record,('part from the Scots) and therefore it's wrong for any race or religion to claim the high moral ground. To make their case they quite naturally drag up history,news etc that supports those viewpoints. Same as anyone with a different point of view will do. Myself included. I've never heard either 'condone' terrorist actions.......... Though the constant 'contrary' opinion looks like 'mitigation' it isn't. What I do feel they are both guilty of however, is that, for the purpose of prevailing in this discussion, they do,(at least to my following of their posts) claim the moral and intellectual high-ground. This smacks to me at least, of hypocrisy on their part. That may or may not be the case. In the end it's for you, the reader to decide for yourself. My position is that there is a growing 'problem' in England,Europe and other parts of the world. It is not a 'perceived problem'.........It's tangible.........It exists. If violence and terror can only be avoided by giving Muslims what they want, can we do that? And is it right to lose what we have? Always rationalising,internalising and turning the other Christian cheek becomes a dangerous excuse for inertia. This 'tangible' problem must be discussed openly and the laws of a country applied impartially for the good of all it's citizens,without fear or favour. Joe and Pastry will argue that it 'is.' I and others will argue that it 'isn't' Hence the endless circular debate. That's enough from me. Good luck with the argument.

Joe is right to balance the scales of evil up. I think I summarised that position earlier for him, ie 'let those without sin' etc. I'll do it again...'Hello Kettle this is the pot ........Your black!' ..... But hang on a moment, while I'm on the subject of 'Black Kettles'....... Joe will remember Chief 'Black Kettle' He was told by his President that as long as he flew the Flag of the United States 'and' the White Flag from the top his tepee he would be right as rain and safe as!......... So he did just that....However it didn't stop a founding father of Joe's State of Colorado from leading the attack on the helpless camp and turning Black Kettle's scrotum into a 'tabaccy pouch'..........'What *is* it about America that gets the murderous,homicidal violence flowing?' As for The Black hole of Calcutta, (maybe it's my reading that's at fault) but Joe seems to imply that this was carried out by The British rather than 'on them' 140 odd shut up in a room so small that only 23 survived the night. For every White atrocity there's a black,red,yellow one..... There I've repeated you argument a 3rd time.

It's not Just Muslims you can't offend........They're just the most likely (in my opinion) to react to any perceived, or real (in their opinion) insult and see it as a moral duty to take bloody revenge in the name of their religion. (The Dutch guy who had his head practically severed for making a film as a case in point) Tell me another film director that's happened to. It was done in the name of Islam and the overwhelming Muslim majority seem to me to be happy to play both ends towards the middle. On one hand they'll spout, 'it ain't all of us' while on the other privately and many publicly reckon he had it coming............The hardly veiled threat being, and so will anyone else that writes a book,or draws a cartoon...............Or publishes,prints..........delivers or maybe even reads or possesses such a blasphemy in their home. Again please correct me if I've overstated that point.

'Chopper Harris say he's often asked how his team would fair against the present Chelsea team. "We'd win 1.0" When asked why 1.0? He said, "Well we're all in our 60's now!"

What I feel Joe and pastry are saying............ is basically 'Let those without sin cast the first stone' And they've definitely got a point I can agree with. If 'we' all actually behaved as our various religious codes require the world wouldn't have a problem. But we know religion is often perverted by it's clergy, of all types, to outcast 'the other' and strive for dominance. I think what Judd is saying and is right to say, is that Muslims are often first to 'cast that stone,' ( STILL, literally, 'cast that stone') and it should be pointed out, sometimes that Muslims have just the same human weaknesses and no more moral authority to judge others than 'we' have. If I'm wrong on this, Joe,Pastry...........anyone, please let me know why.

Having just watched that........Wow Gasgoigne's up there with the very best Englishmen I'd forgotten just how 'contemptuous' he was..........What a waste!! Someone's gonna tell me he's French now. Thanks for that link!!

Game,set and match to you sir! After all those years of Englishmen playing for Ireland because their grannies once owned an 'Irish Setter' have come full circle. I'm speechless!