Dowries

[Tweety 0]

What bothers me in Tweety's case is that he is really going to pay for his wife and it is not all only about the 'face' / ancient local customs. 

Babepecker,

 

One good advice to you: do some research to find out about the meaning and backgrounds of paying dowries at Thai wedding-parties. Maybe it will open your eyes more before mentioning all kind of things in this topic without even knowing one single piece of it.. Although that's my impression.. There are several great posts here from members whom definitely know (and respect) the Thai culture and traditions much more.

 

And for you: forget that word "paying/buying your wife".. As it totally sounds like bullshit.

 

 

Tweety.

[Tweety 0]

As a word of warning, if you are ever invited to a high class Thai wedding please do not tell the brides parents they have just "sold" their daughter, as I would hate for you to end up in the khoa pat.   

Great posts you made, Hub!

 

I was reading this topic with great interest the last few days.. Never my intention to let it go in this way (just a reply on a question).. But well, mai pen rai.. Maybe sooner or later other members can find their info (dowries) here also.. As that's how it started a long time ago for me also.

 

Haha.. you are fully right.. As the first time I started to talk with my girlfriend about a possible marriage (about 1 year ago) she mentioned me about dowry also. I knew about it just a little bit from books before. But that's all... So I made the joke to her in a way like "oh, so I will have to pay for you before you can be my wife" ?? And believe me, even while I said it with a smile, she couldn't appreciate this joke at all..

 

She lives already for over 10 years in Bangkok, stayed more than 6 months in Seoul for her job, and is a very modern and civilized person, but their is one thing she will never change and that's her traditional Thai background (in meaning of ceremonies).

 

She helped me a lot during the dowry-topic with her parents. As she could both understand my situation (and background) and from her parents. That's how I got the deal so well done. But the last thing I ever wanted to happen was that she had to choose between me OR her parents.. Two words can fit it all: mutual respect.

 

 

Tweety.

[BigDUSA 71]

She helped me a lot during the dowry-topic with her parents. As she could both understand my situation (and background) and from her parents. That's how I got the deal so well done. But the last thing I ever wanted to happen was that she had to choose between me OR her parents.. Two words can fit it all: mutual respect.

 

 

Tweety.

Tweety,

 

From my point of view, your being played for a SUCKER. In Thailand 500K is one hell of a lot of money and I take it your bride to be is almost 30 and not a virgin when you meet her? In Thai society she's over the hill and damaged goods. No Thai man would pay a dowry for her.

 

And you think she helped you? Mutual respect, I don't think so.

[Tweety 0]

In Thailand 500K is one hell of a lot of money and I take it your bride to be is almost 30 and not a virgin when you meet her? In Thai society she's over the hill and damaged goods. No Thai man would pay a dowry for her.

Sorry to say, but you were 2x wrong..

[Babepecker 0]

Pecka: Mr. America was intended to be tongue-in-cheeck (as a matter of fact I just did not find the "Smiley" Key on my Keyboard when writing this), so no offense intended.

 

About Cultural Imperialism: Yes I mean that. From your statements here (and Hub pointed to another detail in your posts) I can sense this. Take care. It is not since very long that Croatians are widely recocnised as members of the "civilised" world, you remember Ustascha,  or later General Norac..... Wrong concept of perception, I know, but don't make the same mistake on an other culture ....

 

Sunny

Sunny,

wo soll ich anfangen? Vielleicht damit dass ich nicht dein typischer Grosskroate bin (trotz den beiden Fähnchen ).

 

Weiterhin, da du die Ustascha und ähnliches reingebracht hast - wer Mauthausen im Lande (du bist Österreicher, falls ich mich richtig erinnere?) hatte sollte vielleicht doch nicht so leicht mit den Steinen...?

 

Die Kroatischen Generäle... ...darum sollten sich die Gerichte kümmern, oder? Übrigens, Kroatien schickte und schickt Ihre Generäle nach Haag - gleichzitig weigern sich die Verinigten S. den ICC Vertrag zu unterzeichnen. Zivilisation, was ist es?

 

Ehrlich gesagt, ich sehe ein dass "zivilisiert sein" auf Englisch (sowie auf Deutsch) doch etwas blöd klingt - "anpassungsfähig" und "anstellbar" wären eher angebracht.

Wie ich sagte - Englisch ist meine dritte Sprache...

 

Prost

 

 

(an honest apology to the membership for the above, non-English, scribblings of mine - won't happen again very soon )

 

 

[Babepecker 0]

Babe:

 

Just one excerpt from your post:

 

If I read Tweety's initial post well, his Thai wife is going to move to Europe to live with him, meaning that he believes that she is civilized enough to be able to do it.

 

Whose idea of civilization exactly? Is only your western idea of that concept valid?

 

You need to think outside the box of the western culture that you know. Quoting a western dictionary and saying things like "in the year 2004" has no relevance in understanding and successfully dealing with differences in cultures that have developed separately over a few thousand years.

 

We could go on here forever on what the basis of Thai dowry and things like the fact that western people may consider the marraige and growing up as a chance for independence while Thais continue to think that the parents should be supported, but it is another discussion entirely methinks.

 

What can be said; however, is that blatantly dismissing a Thai cultural tradition like you did and not uderstanding it because you are trying to fit it into your own cultural experience is a recipe for disaster if you ever want to successfully interact with or understand Thais. A Thai/farang relationship is difficult enough, without that type of blatant foul. After all, Tweety is a foriegner trying to take their loved daughter away from them to another country. 

 

Has the dowry tradition been used unfairly to extract baht from farangs as potentially exampled by the recent Kaew marraige thread?  Absolutely.  I am not an expert, but I wouldn't expect a dowry requirement for someone previously married and maybe only a token dowry for a previous BG.

 

Tweety's amount of 400K, while high is not out of the ranges I have read or heard for high class Thais. From reading his posts, IMO he is not being "played", especially as it sounds like money has been flowing the other way in the past and it is a one-time payment with no support to parents expected afterwards. 

 

To maybe put it into context so you can kow jai, would you consider the traditional western practice of the brides father paying for the wedding (usually more 400K baht, BTW) as a "payoff" to the groom?  Is the diamond ring "buying" the girl?  These mischaracterizations are probably not as bad as the comparison you made to dowry to "buying" the Thai wife.

 

Yes, hopefull people can make up there own mind about what they read on the internet, but that does not make it any less valid to dispute blatant ignorance when posted, especially in the form of an absolute as you did and I have no qualms on making a strong response to refute your points.

 

Hub

 

P.S. Babe, this thread has made me come to understand you and your other posts a little better.  You seem like a nice intelligent young guy that is just a little confused about some things. 

 

As a word of warning, if you are ever invited to a high class Thai wedding please do not tell the brides parents they have just "sold" their daughter, as I would hate for you to end up in the khoa pat.   

Hub,

you wrote:

 

"Whose idea of civilization exactly? Is only your western idea of that concept valid?"

 

Well, as I am a Croatian citizen, currently living in Croatia, and having lived my life (for a year or longer) in 4 other European (though not necessarily "western") countries, your argumentation is a bit lost on me.

 

 

Btw, I have no problems with the strength of your responses, though I do struggle a bit with the quality of your argumentation.

 

As the box I am "thinking inside of" (whichever that might be), is seemingly pretty big, I shall add these few questions:

 

What does the mutual respect mean in a case of the conflicting demands by the cultures of partners (or partners-to-be)?

Who should yield/surrender what?

Who can provide a good reason why would a Thai custom be more improtant than an American, Dutch, Austrian or a Croatian one?

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Frog,

english is my 3rd language, though I did understand your blunt attempts at flaming me / my posts.

 

It made me smile - I guess that you were unsuccessful.

 

 

 

Tweety,

I hope that it works out for you and your future wife, despite my doubts regarding (some of) the motivation of her parents.

 

 

 

[SunnyValentine 173]

For Pecka, in German:

Wie erwähnt, mir ging es darum, Denkweisen in deinen Postings zum Thema aufzudecken, die was mit einem Gefühl der kulturellen Höherwertigkeit zu tun haben.

Das Mitgift-wort aud einem US Lexikon zu definieren (und aus dieser Definition argumentative Schlüsse zu ziehen), wenn wir es aber hier mit einem traditionellen, gewachsenen thailändischen Phänomen zu tun haben ....

Meine provokativen Besipiele zu Kroatien sollten nur den Wandel in der Wahrnehmung anderer Staaten im Lauf der Zeit aufzeigen. Das Glashaus ist hier irrelevant. Ich stell mir die Welt immer als ein Dorf von Glashäusern vor. Trotzdem gibt es Kommunikation.

 

Wie gesagt, die Mitgift in Thailand ist etwas anderes als die in Osteuropa oder in den USA. Und nur mit Methoden zu analysieren, die diese Unterschiede auch respektieren.

Wenn ich (und ich werde es in 2 Wochen getan haben, übrigens) eine Thai Frau heirate, nehme ich auch einen Teil Ihrer Tradition in unser neues Heim auf. Sie ihrerseits natürlich auch. Das ist ein riskanter Prozess, und einer, wo ein Gefühl der kulturellen Überlegenheit eines der Partner ganz schnell zur Katastrophe werden kann.

PS: Mitgift ist in unserer Heirat kein Thema. Ich werde bei der Feier 50000 Bt rüberwachsen lassen, die kommen aber am nächsten Morgen zurück. Das hätte auch anders gehen können, ist mir und meiner Frau aber so recht.

 

Sunny

[SunnyValentine 173]

What does the mutual respect mean in a case of the conflicting demands by the cultures of partners (or partners-to-be)?

Who should yield/surrender what?

Who can provide a good reason why would a Thai custom be more improtant than an American, Dutch, Austrian or a Croatian one?

To all readers of this thread (all 2 of them!):

Please forgive me my German reply to Pecka. It touched a field where I felt it was too difficult for me to answer in English, my 2nd Language ....

 

More general:

Pecka raised on important Question in his posting:

IMHO: As soon as a conflict (versus a dialog) in perception of the cultural values of the two is experienced, it might be very hard to solve.

The fact, that Tweety as well as hif wife are both happy with the agreement, leads me to believe they do not sense this as a conflict!

 

That's the core of the matter!

 

Sunny

[wombat 5]

.

The fact, that Tweety as well as hif wife are both happy with the agreement, leads me to believe they do not sense this as a conflict!

 

That's the core of the matter!

true....all the rest is mere rumour,speculation and inuendo.

[SunnyValentine 173]

Forgot to mention:

"Love Conquers All" (Terry Gilliam, Brazil)

 

Sunny

[Frog 0]

english is my 3rd language, though I did understand your blunt attempts at flaming me / my posts

 

babe I made no attempts to flame your posts. No need. You flame yourself.

 

You are undoubtelly an intelligent chap. But you use rational intelligence and absolute statements about something that you do not know, becuase you have never experienced and probably, judging by your character, you will never do.

 

Just read your first post. Not a reflexion of the analitical and sophisticated mind you have. That's all mate!

 

sunny, lets add

 

"Por una mirada un cielo,

por una caricia un mundo,

por un beso, yo no se..yo nose que le diera por un beso". G.A.Becker.

[Babepecker 0]

SunnyValentine,

OK und ich drücke die Daumen für dich / euch (all the best to you). :D

 

 

 

Hub,

as you seem to be referring to a post of mine in the Members (Relationships...) Section from a week or so ago - I though it was clear to everyone who had read it that it was a tongue-in-cheek response to iono's tongue-in-cheek comment.

Would you please re-read it and correct me if I was unclear there and then, within the given context of that thread?

 

Regarding my living in (as opposed to: visiting) the countries other than the one I was born in:

well, to make it very short - I had to adapt to each and every one of those.

In the process(es) I learned about those respective cultures and learned how to behave in a respectful manner, as much as possible in the time I spent there.

Importantly, I did not learn it only by watching TV, reading books, articles on the Internet or talking to people (preferrably in Croatian ), but also by learning the respective language(s), observing the way that people live and doing everything that a citizen of that country would be doing (working/studying included) - partial assimilation might be the correct idiom.

 

Before you ask: no, I was not born with that proverbial "silver tea-spoon" in my mouth.

 

Anyway, to finish this off (if still possible ):

if a tradition (any tradition, the local one where I may live included) is being used as an excuse for a blatant rip-off and I feel like pointing out the realistic probability of this being the case, with no notion of a personal attack on the other party(-ies) in the discourse as was the case in this thread, I shall do it again.

 

 

 

Frog,

"babe I made no attempts to flame your posts."

 

obviously not true, but as I said, it does not really matter - you did not hurt my feelings.

 

La vida estas nada sin amor. (guess that everyone got this one - hope that I got it right)

Sin obscuridad, luz decaeria. (should mean: without the darkness, the light would fade)

 

Being romantic does not need to exclude the usage of one's brain, IMHO.

 

 

 

[brasil43 0]

I need help people. I am going to marry my Thai GF. She is well educated and her family owns a shrimp farm and is asking that I pay 25k to them as a dowry. I need help on what to do

[wombat 5]

brasil43

 

what to do.?

 

buy soap and deoderant..imho.

[York 0]

Eric,

 

I noticed many farangs pay dowry because it make themselves feel good and not what she's worth. Issan girl working in a hotel is worth about 0-100,000 if she's attractive. But many overpay because most farangs are very unattractive (except board members here , of course ) and feels they need to "pay to get her".

 

I don't know what she's worth and that is "up to you" and only you can answer that question. Many farangs got burned with the dowry and got bitter and if you have experience in Thailand you would know why. There are many, many, many sad stories.

[harrydash 0]

  I need help people.  I am going to marry my Thai GF. She is well educated and her family owns a shrimp farm and is asking that I pay 25k to them as a dowry.  I need help on what to do

 

 

If you mean she is asking for 25k US Dollars, then the answer will be.

[mbiggs 1]

As regards to the Dowry, There is a TG who went to University in Sydney and married an Australian guy who was a student from the same university.

 

Her family flew to Sydney for the wedding, Yes a Thai style one. Money was put on display as well as two gold chains and handed back to the couple.

 

She insists that a dowry is something that is there for the couple and anyone telling anything different. EG a dowry from the groom to be given to the TGs parents is a total load of crap.

[brasil43 0]

Thanks for the help people any more will be most helpful. The good things is that her parents will work with me on the money part, but like most americans this is all new to me. I love her alot and the concept of "buying" her doesn't sit well with me

[wombat 5]

the concept of "buying" her

if in your mind dowry (sin sod) = buying

 

i would suggest you dont go there..

 

you are not ready for it.

[bizzjet 0]

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought Sin Sot was a relic from the traditional days and sometimes it's only thrown out there to the farangs to see if he buys into it.

 

An ex-pat friend explained the following:

 

No matter what the price discussed.....

 

If she doesn't have her virginity, cut it in half.

If she ever worked the P4P scene then cut the remaining amount in half.

Over 19 years old, half again,

Isaan peasant, half,

Married before, half

Kids, half,

Farang kid, if you don't marry her she's likely to commit suicide.

 

Their value deminishes with any of the above, that's why a Thai man isn't marrying her. You hold the cards so stop thinking you need to impress everyone with cash. Money doesn't buy love in Thailand. Or anywhere else for that matter.

 

Find a girl that is willing to marry you without sin sot, then make your kind offereings

Edited August 2, 2006 by bizzjet