Looking for condo advice in Pattaya

[jackcorbett 2]

After spending a month in Pattaya--October 22-November 22 during this second visit, I am most interested in making the area my permanent residence, to the extent of checking into U.S. bank financing for a condo and contacting the Thai Consulate in Chicago so that I can get started on a retirement visa. then in March, I'm returning to Pattaya, this time for two months when I will most likely make a final decision on whether or not to buy and which unit to purchase.

 

First off, in general what are the advantages and disadvantages of purchasing a condo here? I can see one advantage that being if the area is undergoing rapid expansion, and i believe it it, rents and property prices will tend to go up. But I'm certainly worried about getting ripped off.

 

Second---what kind of condo and where should I be looking into? I am interested in getting something similar to the apartment I'm living in here in the U.S. which is around 1050 square feet, has two bedrooms, one which I use for a photography studio among other things. This apartment has a very nice private deck where I have bird and squirrel feeders.

 

Ideally I would like something of similar square footage which is a bit less than 100 square meters. Since I have two motor vehicles I would be selling which I can put down on the condo, I am seriously consider paying a premium for what some might consider to be wasteful extravagances. A nice large sunny deck ideally facing the ocean would be a luxury I am most interested in. In fact, my best friend and I checked out a new development in Jomtien that is located between Soy 8 and Soy 9 called Panchalae where we looked at three different units. This complex has beatiful outdoor surroundings with a nice pool, an atrium, etc and it also had large outdoor decks with good views. All in all, quite appealing. I also want to mention that I'm into getting lots of outdoor exercise and here in the states I regularly walk or run and will often bicycle up to thirty miles in a couple of hours. For at least walking and running (I very much doubt Pattaya offers the bicyle trails the St. Louis area offers....eg....as just one part of one there is an abandoned suspension bridge across the Missippi River open to just bicyclists and pedestrians that is one mile long) Jomtien might be better than Central Pattaya. I just don't know since my experience with Pattaya is quite limited.

 

I stayed in a small guesthouse in Northern Pattaya close to Soi 6 on Second Road and I enjoyed this area very much. And it is here where I'm returning in March. Upon my return to the U.S. I noticed that Northshore Condominiums has a web site and I have been looking over their floor plans. However, I do not remember seeing Northshore Condoniums on my walks. In any case, I am not sure if this development has anything like the decks I saw at Panchalae and I have no idea of their pricing as they have not e-mailed me back yet.

 

I loved the proximity of this area to Big C and to Sois 7 and 8 and other areas where there's a lot of ladies to choose from. not to mention several nice retaurants where regularly had breakfast.

 

I would think the Jomtien area would be much quieter since I understand it to be roughly 20 minutes from Central Pattaya by baht bus, which was my regular form of transportation. But we went here when we were all dead tired within 36 hours of our arrival from the U.S. I seem to recall we had to pay the baht bus driver more for taking us there. Since I am seriously considering living in the Pattaya area full time, leaving the U.S. altogether, as dearly as I love the night life action of Walking Street and the various Sois', I am wondering it this might start getting to be a little too much and that I would over the long pull sleep and rest better in Jomtien, get more exercise, etc. I am wondering if I could get my cake and eat it too or is this area substantially more pricey for food, be a bit too hard and time consuming to get from to the main center of action, etc.?

 

There is also the aspect of condo maintainance fees. The grounds of the development I saw in Jomtien look and are expensive to maintain. If they weren't, they would soon deteriorate.

 

I have been looking at various real estate listings on the Internet. There are quite a few from the Talay Condo Project which I understand are between Pattaya and Jomtien. Anyone here have any info on such units? And how long does it take to get to central Pattaya from there?

 

I've talked about the ideal place. 1000 square feet, nice deck and balcony facing the ocean, proximity to the night life of Central Pattaya, less noisy and more relaxing (thus contradicting closeness to night life). Cost is also a factor although if I make this move I'll be saving lots of money by giving up the cars, the rent payment, the prospect of much higher medical bills, etc. and I do have a great advantage of having a nice steady U.S. income. If I do decide to relocate to Pattaya in the real world I will probably end up giving up or compromising on some of the criteria I've listed for choosing a condo.

[SunnyValentine 173]

A 2 Bedroom Condo with Balcony and direct sea view is very expensive right at the moment. There are some Condos in planning - building stadium, so you might have to check into these and see their offers.

Buying a Condo here which is currently built (or planned) is certainly a risk. You are supposed to pay a deposit of around 10 - 15% of the total cost, and then monthly installments over the projected period of construction. What happens when the building company defaults is up to your imagination.

Having said that I admit that I currently pay my monthly installments for a new low-rise Condo (7 floors total, I hate these big high-rises, but that's my personal decision) at about 200 Meters off Jomtien Beach road, and 200 Meters off the Baht Bus route to Jomtien.

I signed for a large (94 square meters) 1 Bedroom Condo, with rathr large balcony, 7th (top) floor, with nice views to the Pattaya hill and bay (on the other side of Jomtien beach). There are "beach view" condos in the same complex, but the view is not really breathtaking, as there are other buildings in front.

So far everything seems to go smooth, I watch the construction going on almost daily (I live in a rented house maybe 5 or 10 minutes walking away), and it seems they will finish construction on time, next June.

I signed for this early January this Year, and am supposed to pay 3.200 000 Bt.

The building is almost sold out, they sell the remaining units (lower floors, mostly studios (45 sq. m) left) for about 20% higher cost than I pay. Others who signed earlier pay even less than me.

The complex is actually two identical buildings next to each other, number one was completed this spring.

The 2 buildings share a nice swimming pool, restaurant / cafe and I think also a fitness room.

Maintainance fees will be around 2000 Bt a month, as stated in the sales contract.

One caveat is: make sure you state personal ownership in the contract. As of now, all newly built condos can have up to 49% farang ownership. In the years before there were possibilities for a 100% foreign owned condos.

As Thai marked demand for condominiums is rather slow (mainly for investment / rental purposes) the companies tend to sell all Condos to foreigners, offering them some kind of "Company ownership". This is not illegal, but definitely a circumvention of Thai laws, so one has to see if this legal construction stands the test of time. Also, it involves yearly leagal and fiscal expenses of about 20.000 Bt or maybe more.

 

Similar projects are in construction or in planning status almost everywhere now, the future will tell if all of them will be a success. Prices are constantly moving to the higher sides, most high quality projects look into 50.000 Bt or more for the Square Meter.

Northshore Condos you mentioned is a much talked about refurbishing project of a structure that was erected and then abandoned in 1997 or so.

Prices are reported to be very high, in the 60000 Bt region, and I heard it is already sold out, but a 2nd hand market is already established, before completion. Some people (experts?) argue the construction will have severe problems as the skeleton was erected some 10 Years ago and has had lots of exposure to weather. Others claim they have a method of dealing with these problems.

 

About Jomtien: It is definitely the quieter side of Pattaya, although lots of restaurants (including some of the best and most expensive), some bars, even a Gogo or 2 are available in the neighborhood.

Local shopping is no problem.

Baht bus fees? Lots of people tell me the busses charge 20 or even 30 Bt for a ride from Jomtien to Pattaya. I use this connection daily, always pay 10 Bt with pride (proud to be farang ) and get in a little discussion maybe once a month.

 

The View Talay Condos one and two are here for some Years now. They are huge, and for my eyes belong to the 10 most ugly buildings worldwide. Having said that, I stayed in some Condos in View Talay 1 for a few month, and it was allright.

You can buy a Condo there from 600 000 to 1 500 000 per Unit (30 - 40 Sq. m). They are built in units and one or two BD appartments are constructed by drilling a hole in the wallls seperating them.

If you are happy getting 3 units next to each other, in an unfurnished state, you can get your 2 Bedroom Condo for less than 3 Million including costs for adaption and furnishing.

As there are more than 3000 Units totally in View Talay one and two, the 2nd hand market is very active, lots of units on offer, bought and sold constantly.

Maintainance fees are incredibly low, at a few hundred baht per month per unit; what this means in the long term remains to be seen.

 

Feels free to ask more questions!

 

Sunny

[jackcorbett 2]

Many thanks, Sunny, for the helpful advice. While looking up the laws re foreign ownership requirements for condos I found the following, which sounds scary. Nevertheless it is the viewpoint of just one person.

 

"Thai Condominium Law

 

If you are tempted to buy a condominium unit in preference to trouble free renting, here is a copy of Thai Condominium Law as it applies to foreign ownership.

 

My advice is not to even consider buying as an option, I could write a book about the rip-offs encountered by people I know, people I have met, and my own experiences in the world of property ownership. You name a bizarre method of cheating an unsuspecting foreigner, and I assure you that I can top it with a more unbelievable but true story.

 

The problems start with the maintenance charges which the Thai occupants rarely pay, leaving the foreigners to increase their share if the lifts, pool and common areas are to be maintained. Staff wages, kick backs from contractors, over charging for everything including 100% mark-ups on water, electricity and telephone. I know people who have arrived back unannounced to find other people occupying their condo and paying rent to the management, in one case it was the manager and his family living there rent free! Units sold twice, units sold whilst there is still an unpaid mortgage on the unit. Units sold by the square metre being vastly over stated when you get a tape measure out. Parking spaces that constituted part of the overall floor area purchased being built over. Management tapping into your own metered power supply to avoid paying for electricity for their own apartments.

These are just the tip of the iceberg and when you consider that you will be expected to pay more than a Thai national for the same unit, then have trouble selling it on if you want to leave and you may begin to see why I suggest that you invest the total price of the condo in an interest bearing investment and use the income generated to pay the rent. Sadly, interest rates are so low now that this option no longer works, but there are nothing but pitfalls associated with buying, and no problems associated with renting.

 

The application of just a small amount of skill and judgement should help you make your mind up. To be fair though, I do know several people who have have had no trouble whatsoever.............................so far.

 

 

 

 

Reading this makes one almost want to rent an apartment. How much truth is there to this viewpoint in your estiimation and how can one best get around avoiding the scamming the writer complains about.

 

 

 

Also...You are perhaps best to ask this question since you are about to move to Jomtien. I have a nice bicycle which I am thinking of shipping over to Pattaya if I make this move. From what I have seen of the traffic in Pattaya itself riding it in Pattaya Central might get a little dangerous . How about the Jomtien area? About the same? And do you know of any good bicycle trails? And what do you think of the Jomtien area itself for walking or running compared to Beach Road between Central and North Pattaya (around Soi 6) where I did a fair amount of walking?

[SunnyValentine 173]

Jack,

I heard about these rip-offs too. Guess they are running mainly on lower priced, more Thai-oriented units. Of course, no guarantee that it can't happen at your block next year, but the same caution applies worldwide, I guess.

From an investors point of view, it is advisable to consider either the best projects at the best possible sites (for a price, of course, but with a real chance of improving value over time; the Markland Condo in North Pattaya is all but new, but prices paid for 2nd hand units are skyrocketting!) or at the very low end, cheap, and then rent out, with some fair chance of the whole unit improving over time and gaining value.

 

About your Bicycle question: traffic in Jomtien is definitely better than Second Road Pattaya, I still would not consider this a top location for cycling. Also heard about incredibly high customs charges for importing a bicycle. Better to sell yours and buy a new one here.

Did I mention that it is really very hot and humid here 9 month of a Year?

 

 

Sunny

[Shit_Happens 31]

Jack

Some good info from Sunny. I will not go over whats been said but will say I prefer Jomtien to live at and Pattaya to party. Jomtien is not as hectic and and it would be pleasant riding a bike down the beach road but if you handle 30 miles easily you will run out of road quickly.

I bought a Studio Condo, 42 squares metres, 18 months ago in Viewtalay 2 for 1.1M and similiar Condos are now going for 1.3M. I am comfortable with this outlay and in the future if things go wrong, so be it, but I am prepared to take the chance. Plus its been rented 90% of the time and returns me 8% after expenses so, so far so good. I can not even use it this Xmas as its rented so I have rented another one in Viewtalay 2 with the rent from mine covering it.

If you would like to get feed back from somebody in the business of renovating and selling Condos in Jomtien PM me and I will send you the email address of my mate in Jomtien who does this. I trust him as he is a good friend but you would need to make up your own mind.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[jackcorbett 2]

Sounds to me that bicycling is NOT a good proposition in the Pattaya area.

 

Sunny--From what I understand the larger units where you expect to take up residence in June are already sold out with only the smaller studios not taken. If not, can you direct me to a web site for the development?

 

Also....how long on an average does it take you to get to Central Pattaya on the baht bus? When we checked out the condos at Panchalae we were all tired from having just arrived in Pattaya from the states. I remember having to pay a higher fee because of the extra distance to this location...which is between Soi 8 and 9 near Wat Bun Rd. However, we probably got taken. Thereafter I normally paid the falang price of 10 baht around Pattaya and on one occasion when I did not have enough change I gave my Thai date just 10 baht and had her pay the driver for both of us while I hung back to the rear of the vehicle. No problem. on this single occasion when I paid the Thai price. I did like the looks of the units I saw, however. Maintainance fees were a bit higher than you will be paying at around 32,000 baht annually, but I really liked the looks of the grounds too. When we returned to North Pattaya on the baht bus there was a lot of traffic so the ride too awhile. I am wondering what to expect when the traffic is not as bad.

 

Also...if one had a motorbike. How would this affect how much time it would take to get to say, Soi 8 in Pattaya itself?

 

Jack Corbett

[SunnyValentine 173]

The project I invest is the View Talay Residence 2.

Here is the Webpage for the company, sorry to say that the Page is quite "under construction" since half a Year or more, so some links lead you nowhere. This is Thailand after all .....

 

They have started selling Blocks 3 and 4 already, at higher prices ......

 

About living in Jomtien and partying in Pattaya, that's exactly what it is about. I enjoy living in a more relaxed surrounding, with only minutes to go to the absolute mayhem ....

A Baht bus needs 10 - 20 Minutes to Soi 8 depending on traffic. With a Motorbike you should be more on the 10 Minute mark. Originally decided for myself no Motorbike, but start considering it now after half a Year. Will see.

 

Make sure you PM me next time you come to Pattaya!

 

Sunny

[jackcorbett 2]

I see what you mean about the complex's web page being under construction. Seems the projected completion date for your building is May, 2005 so they are running a bit behind schedule if you think it will be done in June. Looks like a nice spot though. You mentioned the high rises and how you didn't personally care for their looks. Is this the same company which is building your new home? By the way, the more I think about it the more rationale it seems to live in Jomtien and to play in Pattaya where the absolute mayheim occurs.

 

I have still another question. The one thing I noticed in Pattaya was the absence for the most part of sail boats. I don't know if the same is true about Jomtien or not. Perhaps I was noticing this at the wrong time of the year. Would this possbly be because good consistent winds are not as present as they might be at other parts of the world? (I rented a small hobie cat in Belize several years ago.)

[SunnyValentine 173]

Jack, View Talay means Sea View (Thai linguists please feel free to correct me, this info is based on hearsay!), so the name is kinda Public Domain.

The Company I am referring to has 3 projects running, the View Talay Villas (a few Years old, high prices Village compound nextto the VT Residence), the View Talay Residence Buildings (1-4 so far) and the new Majestic Residence Seaside Villas to be constructed starting next Year.

here is the Homepage of the company who does part time rental for the VT Residence, you will find some more information, Fotos, Floor plans there.

About sailing: Have to pass. Don't know.

 

Sunny

[SunnyValentine 173]

Forgot to mention: They might be a little late, or not, or maybe it will take them a few month longer. Noone can tell. But my contract states end of May 2005, and I am entitled for financial compensation (12500 Bt / month) for every month running late. So a few month is not really a problem for me.

 

Sunny

[jackcorbett 2]

Shit Happens......I am open to a number of possible avenues. Most of the listings I've looked at show condos that are already furnished. Many of these show what I consider to be deplorable tastes. But then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I'm sure many would find what I like to be in bad taste.

 

I have an apartment here in the U.S. that I really love as in nearly every aspect it fits me to a tee. But I went an extra step, hanging celing fans where I wanted, putting in over 15 feet of floor to ceiling mirrors on certain walls which I could use for my photography (of models) and which also makes the narrow room look much more spacious. I put in shelves in the kitchen and bathroom, where I changed the fixtures from chrome to brass, then I had someone come in to rewall paper the bathroom with a map style wall paper of the American Civil War on one side and logs on the other.

 

This is an apartment, not a condo, so one does not normally do these kinds of things, and I really expected to be living here for quite a few years. But it's now looking like I'll be reestablishing myself in Pattaya. So I might be interested in getting something that is unfurnished so I can get just the look (and the furniture) that I want. So I would be interested in hearing more about your mate, what kind of work he does, etc.

[SunnyValentine 173]

Jack, most of the new condos, you buy while being constructed, are unfurnished, or you can easily negotiate a deal with no furnishings. Don't expect the price to drop as much as you might see the same furniture offered, as these companies buy furniture by the dozends or hundreds.

I agree on the taste of most of the furnished deals offered. You can get really nice stuff around here as well, for a price.

 

Sunny

[Shit_Happens 31]

Jack, as Sunny said.

My Mate buys Condos of the plan and has a team of tradesman and either 1) Fits them out with his standard specs and furnishings or 2) Fits them out to his customers requirements. Plus he has just obtained all the licensing and whatever else he had to do and has opened a his own real estate office. His website is under construction so I cannot give you a link yet.

I will PM you his email address and you can have a chat to him. Just tell him Colin from Sydney gave you the address.

[jackcorbett 2]

On another web site I read an article written by a Rick Armstrong in which he urges prospective condo purchasers to rent rather than to buy. The first reason he gives is what he describes as the widespread noise pollution in Pattaya and that there is little a farang can do about it if the noise level escalates beyond what the farang expected. Rick wrote:

 

 

 

"Farangs are permitted to own condos. But before you go rushing into buying a bargain-priced apartment in Bangkok or Pattaya here is one critical reason why you should rent instead:

 

Noise Pollution! Thais seem to live in a world of noise, maybe because they are more tolerant than westerners, or perhaps because they don't know any better. Noise is a fact of life in the kingdom. Especially in poorer neighborhoods of the capital, and upcountry villages.

 

In many provinces of southern Thailand, for example, the noise pollution starts at dawn with a tirade of government announcements amplified over loudspeakers in every other suburban soi. There are Muslim mosques, even in Pattaya, where some amplified, out-of-tune mullah calls the faithful to prayer starting before dawn, with several similar sessions all day, every day.

 

Not to be outdone, the Buddhist temples with their amplified droning and chanting at funerals and other ceremonies can make life miserable for any apartment dweller.

 

Then there are the mobile billboards, blaring music and adverts amplified from slow-moving trucks crawling along major streets." (and so on with more examples of noise pollution).

 

Teenagers across the nation think it is cool to race down city streets on noisy little two-stroke motorcycles, the exhaust mufflers modified to emit the loudest sound possible. And usually in the wee hours when everyone is trying to sleep.

 

And how could you forget those barking soi dogs in the middle of the night.

 

 

A horrible nightmare

 

One friend of mine complained bitterly to me after buying a condo apartment in what appeared to be a very quiet upmarket street. Jack was no stranger to Thailand. He has lived here for several years. But despite my advice to the contrary, he decided to invest in a condo.

 

Thinking he was seasoned and experienced, he shopped around for several weeks. When he finally decided on the building he wanted, he made a careful inspection of the surrounding streets and neighborhood. At all hours of the day and into the evening. He even drove by around 11 p.m. just in case. But all was quiet. This must be the perfect spot.

 

Alas that was not to be. The very first night, money invested and a very proud owner, he moved into his new premises. Imagine his horror when around half after midnight, there was a horrible din from down below. A pork butcher team had arrived and started work chopping up pork carcasses out in the street, adjacent to his building. The noise of the of chopping blocks, the motorcycles roaring off in the early hours with their orders to the early morning markets. The blood and offal going down the sewers, the smell, cockroaches, rats running about everywhere.

 

It was a nightmare without end. There was nothing Jack could do. It was something he just had to put up with. He ended up selling out at a loss, exported what was left of his cash back to the States, took my advice and rented instead.

 

Generally speaking, the more expensive the condo, the more classy and upmarket the residents, and the less chance of noise pollution within and outside the building. But this does not always apply. If the "family from hell" moves in next door, above you, or down the hallway, there is very little you can do about it.

 

You could complain to the condo corporate management, but you'll most likely receive a broad smile and a "mai pen rai" (no worries) response. Don't expect you friendly co-owners to help either. Thais will accept noise, tolerate it, perhaps even be oblivious to it. At most they would think the distressed farang a bit strange and amusing.

 

Now you might argue that these same problems exist for tenants. But renting is a simple affair here in the kingdom. You pay your money every month with little interaction. Unless there are major repairs needed. Minor repairs are usually the tenant's responsibility.

 

If the neighborhood turns bad, such as in the the examples above, if the family from hell moves in next door, or some dude down the street decides to open a welding shop or a karaoke bar, you can pack up quickly and get out... keeping your sanity intact.

 

At most, all you will lose is your security deposit. But hey, the landlord isn't going to give that back anyway.

 

And renting is cheap by western standards. For example, a downtown studio apartment, or a two-storey townhouse in Pattaya typically costs around 5-6,000 baht a month, and that often includes free cable television.'

 

However, it could be that Rick is biased since he apparently sells overseas investments to expatriates settling in Thailand. If the farang buys a condo or house in Thailand he won't have as much to invest with Rick. Nevertheless here in the U.S. my thoughts are very similar to Rick's who might in fact be giving very sound advice. I am presently renting an 1100 square foot apartment that most visitors think is a condo. It is perfect for me. There is no risk in the financial arrangements I have made and if something goes wrong the problem is fixed. Moreover, I have the flexibility to easily move elsewhere. But one issue that concerns me is as follows: I noticed there was heavy contruction in the area I was staying in North Pattaya (2nd Road near Soi 6) near the beach and was informed by an English Expatriate who had been living in Pattaya for 20 years that he expected the city's population to double in the next five years. So I am concerned that rents in and around Pattaya will increase dramatically and very soon. Therefore, buying in and around Pattaya makes more sense to me than in the U.S.

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, I totally concur with Rick's advice to invest outside of Thailand where one understands the rules and has much more consumer protection than in Thailand. To be honest, I'm torn. I'd like to buy the right condo, but I'm very concerned that situations might develop beyond my control (eg...the demotion derby or a sewage plant moves next door raising the decibel or olfactactory threshood to unprecedented levels) that shreds the value of the purchased property yet I'm at the same time concerned about rapidly escalating rental and purchase price increases in both Central Pattaya and desireable areas in Jomtien close to the beach.

 

Is anyone here familiar with a very newly developed condo complex in Jomtien about 1/3rd of a block off the beach called Panchalae that I mentioned in an earlier post? http://www.panchalae.com/ I looked at several condos in that complex of 75 units, and really liked what I saw. Several condos fit me to a tee. Prices go from around 3.6 million baht and up running what appears to be 33,000 baht per square meter but the deck area is included in the square footage and the decks are substantial is size (which is to my liking). In addition maintainance fees for what I consider to be a very attractive building and grounds are rather high, running from $850 American per year and up. Lest everyone think I'm rambling I'll now get to my core questions.

 

I am asking 1. Strictly about this development in particular, 2. While also using this as an example of what I am really looking for. A. Does anyone know anything about this development and the reputation of the company (Panchasarp) behind it? B. Given both my apprehension about assuming the risk of ownership and my fear that there will soon be rapid price escalation in the more desireable areas in Pattaya how risky do you think buying one of these units is or something similar from someone else?

 

A completely different alternative to buying a condo in March or April would be to follow through with my plan of staying in Pattaya for two months starting early March, then return to the U.S. until early August after which I will return again to Pattaya, this time for a year in which I can test the waters. I would rent a small place and possibly try several units out. This strategy would make me much more knowledgeable as to what my next course should be.

[BigDUSA 71]

There is a MAJOR water shortage in Pattaya and the Thia's have barely begun to address the problem. If it was me I would live in Pattaya for one year before I would buy a condo.

[jackcorbett 2]

Thanks. Are you living in Pattaya now?

 

Right now I am looking from my window as I type a water tower. So all is secure here at this apartment. If the power goes out, I have kerosene lamps and the like that I can read by. I could in fact get a small generator to give me enough heat to get by. I could go to a creek, bring some water back and boil it. But I sure like the weather a lot better in Pattaya at this time of the year, the women 10,000 times more, the music which I infinitely prefer to the rap, hip hop and other crap we have over here, and I love the food so much that I go to one of two Chinese restaurants close to this apartment six times a week and only because I would have to drive half an hour away to get thai food (which probably is not quite the same as what I got in Thailand).

[BigDUSA 71]

jackcorgbett,

 

I'm sitting in cold Philly thinking about the day in two years when I move to LOS. I like Pattaya for a vacation but I don't know if I want to live there. To many whores, con men and thieves for my taste. I'm thinking of Chang Mai, Udorn Thani or some other place up north that has good health care, reasonable expat community and some night life.