Moving to Thailand

[Jer-eee 0]

Greetings Earthlings, especially those living in the LOS.

 

Please give me your experienced advice on a move to the Pattaya area.

 

I spent 17 days in the Pattaya area in August 2006. loved it. My second trip will be for 2 months begining January 22, the first 4 weeks my Brother will be along, the next 4 -5 weeks I will be alone trying to live on a budget of 18,000 baht a week.

 

Sometime later, Summer - Fall, a move.

 

I'm 51 recently divorced and recently retired

My gross monthly retirement is about 150,000 baht

I would like my monthly budget to be about 75k +/-

 

Your thoughts please on the budget items below.

 

2 BR house or condo rental, 5 - 10 min ride to Beach Road.

Utillity costs, inc. cell phone.

Transportation via Taxi/Bus. { motorcycle later maybe }

Health care insurance.

Food/water.

Bar Fine 3 -4 times a week or GF { no expense there, right? }

Party, Bar crawl 2-3 days a week. light or no drinking 4-5 days.

Explore other city or village 2-3 days, every 6 -8 weeks.

Did I leave anything out?

 

Living out of US will I be paying US income tax?

Thai income tax?

 

Also posted on another board.

Thanks for any help, Jerry

[jacko 8,766]

Greetings Earthlings, especially those living in the LOS.

 

 

I would like my monthly budget to be about 75k +/-.............Not much considering your planned nightlife...

 

Your thoughts please on the budget items below.

 

2 BR house or condo rental, 5 - 10 min ride to Beach Road. 10-20 K, going up all the time!

Utillity costs, inc. cell phone. Electric 1-2k, water 300 baht, Mobile, 500-1k/month, but I use mine for internet access sometimes.

Transportation via Taxi/Bus. { motorcycle later maybe } Keep the change from bar bills instead if leaving it for tips! A motorcycle will be 3k/ month rental, maybe 100-200 a week gas.

Health care insurance....20-50k pa, don't you have some from home? Big expense.

Food/water. 2k-5k pw

Bar Fine 3 -4 times a week or GF { no expense there, right?

[/color]Party, Bar crawl 2-3 days a week. light or no drinking 4-5 days. Stay home a few nights, you will spend a lot like this.

Explore other city or village 2-3 days, every 6 -8 weeks. U and GF might need 5-8k/trip. A lot more if U go far afield like koi Samui.

Did I leave anything out? Trips home to USA? Inflation. Dead buffalo...Buying stuff for house/ condo..

 

Living out of US will I be paying US income tax? Quite likely

Thai income tax? Not at this time....

 

Also posted on another board.

Thanks for any help, Jerry

Edited November 22, 2006 by jacko

[whitespider 1]

In reference to Jackos reply

 

300 for water is probably underestimated at the moment - with the currect drought I am filling my tank once every two days at around 120 a go.

 

You must complete an Income Tax form if you are here for 180 days+ in any year - that doesn't mean you will actually be taxed though.

 

Lots of rentals/agents listed on one page here

[jacko 8,766]

In reference to Jackos reply

 

300 for water is probably underestimated at the moment - with the currect drought I am filling my tank once every two days at around 120 a go.

 

You must complete an Income Tax form if you are here for 180 days+ in any year - that doesn't mean you will actually be taxed though.

 

Lots of rentals/agents listed on one page here

 

There are no bloody droughts in Thailand at the moment......there are floods....currently pipes are being replaced around Pattaya causing loss of water in central areas. I get monthly water bills, my water is metered. My water comes from a big lake about 5km away which is full at the moment. They had rowing races on it last weekend.

 

I have been retired here for a couple of years and never filled in a tax form, perhaps others can expand....do you have a company for home ownership which will require a tax submittal maybe?

Edited November 22, 2006 by jacko

[don_dadda 0]

Living out of US will I be paying US income tax?

 

If you are out of the country for 330 days and earn less than 85k you are not charged income tax. Just Social security and medicare.

 

I would consult a tax advisor before you go because you are probably going to have to file an extension.

 

BUT be forewarned if you are in country 1 day over the 35 days allowed you are liable for the ENTIRE tax bill.

[jm49er1 0]

If you are out of the country for 330 days and earn less than 85k you are not charged income tax. Just Social security and medicare.

 

can you give me a link where i can verify this? - this is certainly good news if true

[redwood13 56]

The 85K exclusion refers to foreign earned income.

 

-redwood

[Eneukman 1]

Jer-eee, 75,000 baht per month is certainly feasible though obviously you cannot go out mongering every night on that. One factor that is often overlooked is an allowance for side trips within Thailand, the occasional holiday elsewhere in the area and visits back to your home country.

 

I have a 2 room condo and my water bills vary from 240 to 320 or so baht. This includes a 50 baht service charge per month per room. My bedroom only has a ceiling fan, which is on every night for anything between 9 and 10 hours. The electric bill for the bedroom (and bathroom with hot water heater for the shower) comes to around 250 baht per month. The living room bill varies from around 600 baht to a bit over 1,000 baht depending on how long I spend on the internet and how much I use the aircon.

 

Alan

[BigDUSA 71]

I would recommend getting a full medical checkup in the US before you make the move. I've done so recently and was lucky I had the nasty kind of skin cancer diagnosed early and my prognosis is excellent. On your budget of 75K per month you can live like a minor King but your living quarters will be further away from the beach. Liv in GF runs between 6-10K per month + -.

[soi6 0]

The 85k as Redwood says is 'foreign earned income' that you are not taxable for yearly, however from

what I understand that 'foreign earned income' does not count as non-taxable if it is from investments, dividends, bonds, property, etc... Only wages at a job are not taxed up to 85k, if you are outside the US for 333 day/yr. Recently congress removed inclusion of employer paid for housing/auto/etc. into the 85k amount.

[Owen` 2]

A quick comment here to encourage the OP to use Search at the top of the page. There are some very helpful people around and individual costs for individual categories have already been covered in almost all cases.

 

If your early retirement is coming from pension sources, you have US tax issues to address. You also need to look very carefully at it, be sure it is inflation indexed, and be sure the odds of it being attacked in the future by the distributing source are low.

 

If it is coming from a nestegg, you have many maneuvers available to you that can reduce tax to almost zero.

 

If you are using a nestegg, think in terms of 4.5% extracted in year 1 for living expenses (assuming you will collect Soc Sec at age 62). If you get no SS, then use 4%. If you extract no more than 4-4.5%, position your nestegg in 50% stocks and 50% bonds, and allow yourself a 3% inflation "pay raise" each year, you will likely not run out of money before you die. If you take out more, you likely will run out of money and your last few years will be miserable.

[whitespider 1]

There are no bloody droughts in Thailand at the moment......there are floods....currently pipes are being replaced around Pattaya causing loss of water in central areas. I get monthly water bills, my water is metered. My water comes from a big lake about 5km away which is full at the moment. They had rowing races on it last weekend.

 

I have been retired here for a couple of years and never filled in a tax form, perhaps others can expand....do you have a company for home ownership which will require a tax submittal maybe?

 

Jacko - agree re "Thailand" but there is (apparently) an official drought here in Pattaya. Granted it might have more to do with the pipes but I was just trying to explain that 300 might be a slight underestimation. I too am on a meter but we have had little mains water in the last 2 weeks and have had to rely on the tanks. I have a house - condo's might well be different.

 

Re the tax form - the rules are fairly simple - if you reside in Thailand for more than 180 days in each year you must complete a tax return. That does NOT mean you will actually pay tax but the return is SUPPOSED to be made.

 

Of course many people never bother (TiT after all) but given the new visa regime etc (clamping down on tax avoidance amongst other things) plus the fact that your entry and departure is now computer logged it is a wise idea to do so. I for one would not want to give the authorities any reason to nail me should they ever choose to look into my affairs and not filing a return could well be thrown at you if they wished to.

 

 

More info available on the 180 day rule =tax]here

 

 

Info re US citizens taxation in Thailand =tax]here

[jacko 8,766]

Jacko - agree re "Thailand" but there is (apparently) an official drought here in Pattaya. Granted it might have more to do with the pipes but I was just trying to explain that 300 might be a slight underestimation. I too am on a meter but we have had little mains water in the last 2 weeks and have had to rely on the tanks. I have a house - condo's might well be different.

 

 

 

Well working on the pipes is not a drought as such, it is a distribution issue. Looks like rain right now!

 

My house has never lost water the 6 months I have resided there! So much building going on I expect they have to 'connect in' to the water mains ...perhaps you should visit city hall and find out what the problem is..

Re the tax form - the rules are fairly simple - if you reside in Thailand for more than 180 days in each year you must complete a tax return. That does NOT mean you will actually pay tax but the return is SUPPOSED to be made.

 

 

 

Been here over 2 years now, and never been asked for this...I go back to UK 2 times/year. Thanks for the link, it tells me I am not liable for tax (no earnings in Thailand) but could be asked one day for a 'tax return'. Hard to know whether to keep on ignoring the issue, or fill in a return and draw attention to myself...

Of course many people never bother (TiT after all) but given the new visa regime etc (clamping down on tax avoidance amongst other things) plus the fact that your entry and departure is now computer logged it is a wise idea to do so. I for one would not want to give the authorities any reason to nail me should they ever choose to look into my affairs and not filing a return could well be thrown at you if they wished to.

 

 

More info available on the 180 day rule =tax]here

 

 

Info re US citizens taxation in Thailand =tax]here

[whitespider 1]

Jacko

 

Will do re city hall - thanks for that. Everyone in iour street has the same proboem but it does seem to be getting better now.

 

You will NOT be "asked" to complete the tax return the obligation is on YOU to make it - failure to do so is an offence but as you are aware a lot of people (perhaps the majority) never bother and never get caught. This is uusually through ignorance of the rules rather than them avoiding do so though.

 

If you are quite sure you have no liability in Thailand it might be worth getting the ball rolling. If you have no liability then there would probably be no harm in making the return.

 

One point though - you do not have to have 'earnings' in Thailand to be taxable - personal tax is due on incomes that are not earned or are earned outside Thailand.

 

The Personal Income tax rules state:-

"Non-residents are taxed only on income from Thai sources. Residents are subject to taxation from foreign sources as well, if such income is brought into Thailand".

 

As you are here for over 180 days in each year you are classed as "resident" (for tax purposes) and therefore may be liable for tax on income from foreign sources.

 

 

My situation is different in that I think you are far more footloose and fancy free than me - I have a young family so I can't run the risk of not having my visa and permit renewed by making a mistake that they can latch on to. The worse that can happen to you is probably just a fine or problems getting your retirement (assuming that's what you have) visa renewed one year end in the future. If I fell foul it could be far more serious for me in that it could affect my kids schooling etc.

 

Perhaps we have gone on long enough - cleary it is each individuals personal choice whether they "comply" or not - I was originally simply trying to make the OP aware that he SHOULDF make the return.

[travlling 0]

A quick comment here to encourage the OP to use Search at the top of the page. There are some very helpful people around and individual costs for individual categories have already been covered in almost all cases.

 

If your early retirement is coming from pension sources, you have US tax issues to address. You also need to look very carefully at it, be sure it is inflation indexed, and be sure the odds of it being attacked in the future by the distributing source are low.

 

If it is coming from a nestegg, you have many maneuvers available to you that can reduce tax to almost zero.

 

If you are using a nestegg, think in terms of 4.5% extracted in year 1 for living expenses (assuming you will collect Soc Sec at age 62). If you get no SS, then use 4%. If you extract no more than 4-4.5%, position your nestegg in 50% stocks and 50% bonds, and allow yourself a 3% inflation "pay raise" each year, you will likely not run out of money before you die. If you take out more, you likely will run out of money and your last few years will be miserable.

 

Thanks Owen,

I was going to ramble on about using the search engine, glad someone did............and he's not even an "ex-pat"

 

maybe it's just me

 

travlling to stay in 82

[Owen` 2]

Thanks Owen,

I was going to ramble on about using the search engine, glad someone did.

 

Can't blame guys for this.

 

I've seen it a lot of late as more and more people reach that age group where it becomes clear that work is not in their future. It's such a new concept to them that they instinctively presume it is new for everyone.

 

Well, it is for everyone, at some point. And there is an aspect of the issue that is different from any time in the past -- in that pensions are going away and retiring on something other than a pension, in Southeast Asia rather than Florida or Yorkshire, is not what our parents did.

 

So, the questions can be repetitive, but understandably so.

[Gary 4,100]

I know an old retired guy who gets about $600 per month from Social Security. He likes to drink, play pool and short time. He knows every free food night in every bar in Pattaya and Jomtien. I live on less than that but my circumstances are a little different. I live in my wife's home up country, pay no rent and have income from condo rent from Jomtien. A single guy with a normal sex appetite and renting an apartment/condo can live VERY well on 75,000 baht per month. I know I did.

[dacah 0]

Owen you always put a very good reply to Newbies asking this same question....you certainly made me look at my own situation

 

As for living out in LOS for an extended period I have still come to a conclustion that 100,000 Baht per month plus some for emergincies , looks about the right amount...however "up to you" ...you could live much much cheaper.

It really has to do with your own standards...do you want to mimick your life back in Farangland or create a new you..."up to you"

I drive a Honda scooter in Patts nothing remotely what i drive in Farangland ...etc etc

Edited November 28, 2006 by dacah

[Owen` 2]

As for living out in LOS for an extended period I have still come to a conclustion that 100,000 Baht per month plus some for emergincies , looks about the right amount...however "up to you" ...you could live much much cheaper.

It really has to do with your own standards...do you want to mimick your life back in Farangland or create a new you..."up to you"

I drive a Honda scooter in Patts nothing remotely what i drive in Farangland ...etc etc

 

 

A lot of this is getting past the psychological barrier of thinking that a price tag of living expenses of just $1500 or $2000 per month is some kind of downgrade in lifestyle. The number intimidates guys until they have spent enough time travelling -- not just to Pattaya -- to see that the rest of the world does not pay what the US and UK citizenry pay to live.

 

Well dressed Thai office girls make what, 15,000 baht per month? They fund those nice clothes and demeanor with that paltry income.

 

A big, subtle effect on budgets is travel. A lot of guys have no interest in extensive travel. So they don't need a budget for it. They may be living a very nice lifestyle in Pattaya but their budget could be almost half someone living the same lifestyle, but who wants to do 2-3 trips per year to the US or UK.

 

As best I can tell, a mid scale 2 bedroom apt, motorbike for transport (or none at all), maybe 2 bar crawls per week and 2 major trips with maybe another 3 local trips (Singapore or Vietnam) per year will get funded just fine, with a cushion, on 100K baht per month.

 

Newbies, pay heed. It's very inexpensive in Pattaya for a great life, But It Is Not Free. Know what you're doing.

[jjj 0]

A lot of this is getting past the psychological barrier of thinking .....

 

Another huge issue for me is getting past the psychological barrier of thinking about living with a cash flow that would be substantially less or even negative compared to how I have lived my adult life. Saying goodbye to a career and/or retirement is in all practicality a one way avenue in that I would not be able to return to the same job/income.

 

There is an old saying aroung here about "be careful what you think you want, you may get it". If it then turns out that the grass wasn't greener, the emotional impact could be overwhelming.

 

Having said all that, the alure is still quite strong and it is more a matter of when, not if, I make the move.

[Owen` 2]

Another huge issue for me is getting past the psychological barrier of thinking about living with a cash flow that would be substantially less or even negative compared to how I have lived my adult life. Saying goodbye to a career and/or retirement is in all practicality a one way avenue in that I would not be able to return to the same job/income.

 

There is an old saying aroung here about "be careful what you think you want, you may get it". If it then turns out that the grass wasn't greener, the emotional impact could be overwhelming.

 

Having said all that, the alure is still quite strong and it is more a matter of when, not if, I make the move.

 

 

Spot On!!

 

This is huge. I think a lot of guys who take the plunge were semi forced into it. They were offered some retirement buy out or they lost their job or some health event told them they have to get away from stress or maybe a divorce or whatever.

 

But if you're making big money and have a solid net worth, but you know that if you're gone for a year your skillset will be too old to resume where you were . . . then it's hard to walk away.

 

But in the end, in the final analysis, your last sentence tells the tale. It is a matter of when, not if. If you wait longer, you have fewer years to enjoy. If you move too soon, well, you're screwed, but it's pretty easy to determine what is "too soon" mathematically.

 

Regardless, it's a tough call. But the toughness is not about Pattaya. It's about the concept of early retirement.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Owen`

[soi6 0]

One thing to do b4 you make the move in the US is to make residency in a state with no state income tax.

If not, and you moved from Kalifornia or Taxachussets they will keep a tab on what they say you owe and chase you when it gets high enough. The best thing to do is move to Washington state or Texas and live there for several months and rent a place, get a new drivers license, and get rid of your old one and have the new state be the one you file your federal taxes in..

 

I don't know much about investing, but an annuity might also be something to consider. Here is a website a friend of mine recommended I look at, they have a free annuity calculator.

 

http://www.immediateannuities.com/

 

You might consider putting some investment in an annuity, and invest the rest.. 'Owen may have some other advice though.

[Owen` 2]

Here's the deal on annuities.

 

An annuity, folks, is a product. It's a product sold by . . . usually insurance companies.

 

What they do is say, we will pay you $X per month for The Rest Of Your Life if you give us $Y now. And they guarantee it.

 

That's the appeal for most folks who are interested in this -- the guarantee.

 

Well, here's the downside:

 

1) You can buy inflation adjusted annuities that pay $X per month in 2006 equivalent dollars, but they will cost you a lot more than $Y from above.

 

2) The guarantee is secured only by the survival of the insurance company. It might not survive. There are some government vehicles that some insurance companies try to point at as further protection, but generally speaking those are not valid and if they are -- that product costs more than $Y.

 

3) The insurance company makes a lot of money on annuities. Their $Y calculation has a healthy profit margin built in. They aren't taking much risk at all in promising you $X/month for the rest of your life because they are going to invest half your money in stocks and half in bonds and pay you $X/month out of the proceeds, and given the profit margin they build in it would take 10 solid years of market collapse before they have to dip into their own coffers to pay you out of money that didn't come from your initial $Y.

 

Bottom line, I don't like them. Doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Edited December 2, 2006 by Owen`

[iono 0]

One thing to do b4 you make the move in the US is to make residency in a state with no state income tax.

If not, and you moved from Kalifornia or Taxachussets they will keep a tab on what they say you owe and chase you when it gets high enough. The best thing to do is move to Washington state or Texas and live there for several months and rent a place, get a new drivers license, and get rid of your old one and have the new state be the one you file your federal taxes in..

 

Man you got that right, I've been working overseas and had Washington State as my place of residence, I've now taken a contract in California and am regretting it as this socialist tax to the max state is out of control, I may make the move to Thai land now due to my new experience in this screwy state, sucks to think I will have to pick up and move again before a permanent move overseas.