working out living costs for LOS

[hybrid 1]

playing around with living costs for my pending hopefull move ..

those who are already there can you have a look and tell me if i'm budgeting about right please

what have i missed/what have i added that i don't need

 

 

rent - house 20000 (2 bed house)

rent - car/bike 5000

bus costs 2500 (don't drink/drive so if going out need bus/taxi)

cigeretes 3000 (rolling tobacco - old holborn, may have to change to drum as can't get OH in LOS)

unnecessary items 2000 (replacing/adding anything for house)

household items 2000 (toilet paper etc etc)

alcohol for house 2000 (as a rule i never drink at home, but LOS changes many things)

Laundry 2000 (hopefully will have own washing machine so can add into electric instead)

Drinking out(with TGF)9500 (drink only budget for nights out with tillak)

Maid 1200 (cleaner once a week to give the live in a rest)

Contents insurance 1000 (total guess)

water 600 (guess work)

cable tv 1500

bar fines * tg * 20 (1500 a time) 30000 (bit OTT really but adding this in case tillak goes AWOL)

gas bottles 500

electric 5000 (air con on most of time)

cloths 2000

food eating in 10000

food eating out 10000 (food on nights out with tillak)

nights out (drink only) 5000 (drinks when out alone)

telephone & internet 1500 (got to have adsl so can make VOIP calls to UK)

Health insurance 3000 (40 year old BUPA or similiar)

tillak for her mama/papa 10000 (or whatever else she does with it)

tillak hair salon 3000 (2 times a week)

 

total monthly outgoings 132300

 

i'm sure i'm over budgeting in many areas here as these sums leave me with nothing left each month so is no good as i need to allow for a return ticket to the UK every 90 days or so to check on my assets and fetch more money

Edited September 20, 2006 by hybrid

[Owen` 2]

Search for posts by BMs Eneukman and Soi7, both of whom have provided excellent budget profiles for different choices of where to live and drinking different amounts.

 

BM Torrenova has also posted excellent perspectives on the degree to which drinking and women are hugely influential on your total budget.

 

My only comment on your numbers is they imply you will never ever make trips "home" or go exploring in Laos or Singapore or anywhere else.

 

Also, nodding to Torrenova's usual comments, I compute that about 25% of your budget is spent on your woman or women. The live in would be cheaper -- at first.

 

You have included BG costs and tilak costs both so your monthly budget should be lower -- unless you plan 20 LTs a month even with a tilac in the house.

[Dirk_Diggler 0]

After working out my budget for LOS must admit drink/girls make up about a 1/3 of my planned monthly expenses, looking at a night out every 2nd or 3rd night. Rent also fairly high for the place I want...IMHO these three things as mentioned before can make the biggest differences in a persons budget.

[Dirk_Diggler 0]

Just did some hunting, found some of the previous threads by Eneukman

 

http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/index.ph...c=18188&hl=

http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/index.ph...7&hl=budget

[Owen` 2]

i'm sure i'm over budgeting in many areas here as these sums leave me with nothing left each month so is no good as i need to allow for a return ticket to the UK every 90 days or so to check on my assets and fetch more money

 

I'll toss in one more comment.

 

Forget it.

 

If you are up against the edge of your budget and you need to make 4 trips to the UK per year (plus food/lodging/transport while there), then you have no business trying to live in Pattaya.

 

You have no margin for error -- and if your income is pension vs asset proceeds, you have no assurance you can keep up with inflation.

 

Dispose of those assets and park the proceeds somewhere that yields interest or dividends. Then you don't need 4 trips home per year (though maybe still 1).

 

Think about inflation. Inflation is the killer.

[hybrid 1]

I'll toss in one more comment.

 

Forget it.

 

If you are up against the edge of your budget and you need to make 4 trips to the UK per year (plus food/lodging/transport while there), then you have no business trying to live in Pattaya.

 

You have no margin for error -- and if your income is pension vs asset proceeds, you have no assurance you can keep up with inflation.

 

Dispose of those assets and park the proceeds somewhere that yields interest or dividends. Then you don't need 4 trips home per year (though maybe still 1).

 

Think about inflation. Inflation is the killer.

 

my budget max is £1700 (120,000 BHT) per month but idealy around around £1200 (84,000 BHT) , so £300 - (21,000 BHT) per week is my target. this comes from rental of 2 houses i own in the UK .. so allowing for upto 4 trips back in case of problems. leaving a slush fund of the extra £500 per month spare

bricks and mortar being a big asset the idea being to not have to sell these till later in life as there value will increase more than having the cash in the bank

rental value of these should also increase inline with inflation

 

yes i have added both tillak and 20 LT's . and don't need both so around 20k BHT at least is in error on my original post .. bringing me down to 110k BHT per month .. so need to shave off another 25k to make it fit nicely..

 

i've not added any income in from possible work doing english teaching (or anything else that may come along, work permit permiting of course ) either as unless i am there doing it i think it dangerous to budget on having it .. although i am assuming i will need to do something with my time like english teaching even it is a low income job to keep myself busy

 

i'm trying to budget on worst case scenario with overspend, and not including £15,000 (1mill BHT savings) in cash in the equation at all, and purely budgeting on regular income that should be incoming each month

Edited September 20, 2006 by hybrid

[Owen` 2]

my budget max is £1700 (120,000 BHT) per month but idealy around around £1200 (84,000 BHT) , so £300 - (21,000 BHT) per week is my target. this comes from rental of 2 houses i own in the UK .. so allowing for upto 4 trips back in case of problems. leaving a slush fund of the extra £500 per month spare

 

If I understand you correctly, hybrid, the entirety of your retirement income is rent paid for these two houses you own and some kind of bank interest on 15,000 pounds you have in cash.

 

You seem to be saying you expect to collect rent of 1700 pounds per month.

 

Are you over 50 yrs old?

 

Back to the 1700 pounds. I'll assume you're competent and this is net of periods of time of vacancy, any mortgage payments you might have, maintenance expense for tenants breaking things, maintenance for fixing the furnace, maintaining the landscaping and whatever else landlords do in the UK (in the US snow shoveling in driveway would be an item). The 500 pounds "slush" per month are to add to 6000 pounds and I don't know what 4 trips cost. I'll guess 700 pounds total (ticket, food, onsite transport, lodging) each.

 

UK rents rise as fast as Thai inflation? Don't know.

 

In the category of there is no magic in the world, could you say in general what the value of the two properties is? If you are going to spend about 110,000 per month (1.3 million baht per year) plus 4 trips (200,000 baht total?), then frankly, for you to try this with no pension income I would recommend you have a net worth of 25X that total or about 37 million baht. That has inflation built in and a margin for error -- and it would cover you 30 yrs. If you are dying later than that, you'll need more.

 

The 25X rule of thumb has academic studies behind it. It is not guesswork. If you have less, you may die before your money does, but it's not likely.

 

Hope it all works out.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Owen`

[wannabeexpat 0]

Eneukman sounds like he has a good lifestyle and doesnt do without anything for 80,000bht. If you added rent alcohol and barfines to Soi 7s, it would be round about the 80,000 bht too. So as long as you can keep your income above the 80k, you should be ok. You could vary your lifestyle as or when you had rental voids.

[Owen` 2]

Eneukman sounds like he has a good lifestyle and doesnt do without anything for 80,000bht. If you added rent alcohol and barfines to Soi 7s, it would be round about the 80,000 bht too. So as long as you can keep your income above the 80k, you should be ok. You could vary your lifestyle as or when you had rental voids.

 

 

Guys, focus here. The gentleman makes a good comment. Flexibility of spending can accommodate rental vacancies (I guess you Brits call them voids).

 

This is a much broader concept than simply vacancies. This is about 30 years, people. 30 years for something to go wrong. Suppose a tenant burns a property down. You are on an airplane the next day to get it "sorted out". What's that going to take? Well, you'll be insured, of course, and the coverage will take care of rebuilding. But it won't cover (presumably) loss of rent during the build process. It won't cover the fact that you're going to be paying BOTH rent in LOS if in the middle of a lease there and lodging in the UK during the construction process. You probably can't just up and leave and not pay the LOS rent because you have to keep money in an LOS bank accout for your retirement visa. The landlord will tap it.

 

Should you plan for something as bizarre as a burned down house? No. But in 30 years some kind of disaster is going to happen and you have to have cushion for it.

 

Flexibility is a great thing, but expenses are in two categories -- necessities and discretionary. By definition, you can't reduce necessities. All you can do is drink less and bar fine less and eat cheaper. Don't put yourself in a position where that's necessary. That will be irritation lasting 30 yrs. Now, I will say that there are good studies out suggesting that people spend less, not more, as they age -- despite inflation. Up to you what you think you'll do.

 

The 25X rule of thumb is designed around no flexibility in spending. It is based on spending autopilot of 3% inflationary increase per year. If you're flexible in your needs/wants, that 25 number can reduce. Just not by much.

Edited September 20, 2006 by Owen`

[hybrid 1]

Guys, focus here. The gentleman makes a good comment. Flexibility of spending can accommodate rental vacancies (I guess you Brits call them voids).

 

This is a much broader concept than simply vacancies. This is about 30 years, people. 30 years for something to go wrong. Suppose a tenant burns a property down. You are on an airplane the next day to get it "sorted out". What's that going to take? Well, you'll be insured, of course, and the coverage will take care of rebuilding. But it won't cover (presumably) loss of rent during the build process. It won't cover the fact that you're going to be paying BOTH rent in LOS if in the middle of a lease there and lodging in the UK during the construction process. You probably can't just up and leave and not pay the LOS rent because you have to keep money in an LOS bank accout for your retirement visa. The landlord will tap it.

 

Should you plan for something as bizarre as a burned down house? No. But in 30 years some kind of disaster is going to happen and you have to have cushion for it.

 

Flexibility is a great thing, but expenses are in two categories -- necessities and discretionary. By definition, you can't reduce necessities. All you can do is drink less and bar fine less and eat cheaper. Don't put yourself in a position where that's necessary. That will be irritation lasting 30 yrs. Now, I will say that there are good studies out suggesting that people spend less, not more, as they age -- despite inflation. Up to you what you think you'll do.

 

The 25X rule of thumb is designed around no flexibility in spending. It is based on spending autopilot of 3% inflationary increase per year. If you're flexible in your needs/wants, that 25 number can reduce. Just not by much.

 

i understand wht your saying here .. but does this mean you would recomend that a person should not move to LOS with less than a cool half a million pounds sterling in the bank in cash ? or that overall assets should be about that ? or even assets with value in 25 years ?

i value the 2 houses at around £200,000 currently total .. however in 25 years that will most probably be very very much more .. even in the last 10 years prices have doubled on property

 

as far as the fire goes .. mmm .. interesting disater scenario and one that would prove most interesting .. would prove very hard to build this into ANY plan of moving abroad. everyting seems insurable ata cost so i assume there are landlors insurance polices that cover for rental loss if this happend, at a cost tho which then reduces the amount cleared on rent

 

and age is 40

Edited September 20, 2006 by hybrid

[hybrid 1]

have been lying in bed trying to sleep and keep thinking about this .. LOL

and can't sleep so fingers to keyboard

i think my original budget plan is a passport to liver damage with way over the top going out.

if i look at it from a realistic point of view i would burn out and die either of HIV or Alcholol abuse within 1 year , going out twice a week is enough

 

so re-budget more sensibly i think with a long term prospective in mind , also bearing in mind my key thing is to retain my houses in the UK just in case i do want to come back here. and the only thing it will then of cost me is the rental money i have spent while away which would of been spent anyway if at home ..

 

rent - house 20000 (2 bed house) £285

rent - car/bike/bus 12000 £170

cigeretes 3000 £42

household sundries 3000 £42

Contents insurance 1000 (total guess) £14

cable tv 1500 £21

electric/gas/water 6000 £85

cloths 2000 £28

food in/out 20000 £285

telephone & internet 1500 (got to have adsl so can make VOIP calls to UK) £21

Health insurance 4000 (40 year old BUPA or similiar) £57

tillak for her mama/papa/salon 13000 (or whatever else she does with it) £185

 

total monthly outgoings 87000 £1200 approx

now this is without any bar fines or going out for a drink at all ..

what have i got wrong here ? where am i over budgeting. this works out to a higher cost of living than the UK which it is'nt mmmm ..

Edited September 20, 2006 by hybrid

[Owen` 2]

Usual caveats here. You don't know me. I should not be listened to unverfied. Do your own research. I got no reason to lie to you. I'll do the best I can providing info. blah blah.

 

Search for Eneukman and Soi7 posts on what they spend to live in Pattaya. They are on the ground there. I'm not. I would not presume to quote costs based on my relatively brief visits vs those guys who live there and have learned what constitutes life there. They both took the time and made the effort to provide the data to guys like you and me who are interested. And it's excellent data. Search will help you.

 

Beyond that, as to how to fund whatever numbers you decide are going to be your costs I can offer information. Philosophically, it's important to understand that it need not be Pattaya specific. The picture is much bigger than that. What you're talking about is Early Retirement.

 

1) You're 40. Instead of 30 yrs for something to go wrong in your plan, you have 40 yrs for something to go wrong.

 

2) You have apparently a net worth of about 225K pounds? You intend to spend 120K baht per month or 1.44 million baht a year. That's what, about 20,000 pounds? This gives you an annual withdrawl rate from your net worth of about 10%. You have 10X your annual expenditures. Not 25X. Formula for disaster.

 

3) You are not the first to be shocked that such hefty net worths will not support "retirement". Inflation is devastating. It's also inexorable.

 

4) Guys on inflation adjusted pensions are the most common mechanism you'll see for retirement. They are at a big advantage and a big disadvantage. Their advantage is their income level now, defining a lifestyle, will be maintained as long as their inflation adjustment maintains. Their disadvantage is that if that's all they are relying on and their pension agency either freezes inflation or shuts off altogether, they have NO HOPE. They must return to work. Guys retiring on assets will always have the hope of big returns to save them if they are in trouble.

 

5) Opinions are cheap and easy. I got one just like everyone else. You most likely do not have enough money to retire and move to Pattaya. Period. If you try it, you'll greatly hurt your life 15ish yrs from now. You're about half-way there. See if you can manage the other half in the next 10 yrs. 50 is still pretty young.

[hybrid 1]

interesting stuff .. and does make sense .

..

no reason to stay in UK workwise as my current employment ends in 4 weeeks

part of the influence on the move is the TGF .. last thing i want to do is after 5 months with her is bring her back to the UK and get married , better to test on site for an extened period 1st

so i may view this a year out in LOS skinny dipping funded by the rent with a view to coming back to the UK at any given moment.

take a years rent for the house in LOS out of my £15k so i cannot be left homeless until my Uk house become vacant again. then just budget month by monht on what comes in

 

thanks for info owen . worrying to think how many farangs sell everything leaving no return route home and move without funds to last them .. guess thats the jumpers we see

 

 

on a foot note and the reason to keep the properties

i purchased these house 7 & 10 years ago at £55,000 & £40,000 respectivly , current values are £125,000 & £120,000

Broadly speaking, you'd expect property prices to increase in line with average earnings over the long term. Estimating that at 4.5% per year, then we'd expect our £120,000 house to treble in value over 25 years to £360,000 and our £125,000 house to treble in value over 25 years to £375,000. total value in 25 years £735,000

in reality house prices have been increasing at a higher rate than this, but no ways to tell this will continue so i will leave projections at average earning increase's

so the houses are my retirment fund .. the rental income is my day to day income fund to last me till its time to sell them

Edited September 21, 2006 by hybrid

[Eneukman 1]

have been lying in bed trying to sleep and keep thinking about this .. LOL

and can't sleep so fingers to keyboard

i think my original budget plan is a passport to liver damage with way over the top going out.

if i look at it from a realistic point of view i would burn out and die either of HIV or Alcholol abuse within 1 year , going out twice a week is enough

 

so re-budget more sensibly i think with a long term prospective in mind , also bearing in mind my key thing is to retain my houses in the UK just in case i do want to come back here. and the only thing it will then of cost me is the rental money i have spent while away which would of been spent anyway if at home ..

 

rent - house 20000 (2 bed house) £285

rent - car/bike/bus 12000 £170

cigeretes 3000 £42

household sundries 3000 £42

Contents insurance 1000 (total guess) £14

cable tv 1500 £21

electric/gas/water 6000 £85

cloths 2000 £28

food in/out 20000 £285

telephone & internet 1500 (got to have adsl so can make VOIP calls to UK) £21

Health insurance 4000 (40 year old BUPA or similiar) £57

tillak for her mama/papa/salon 13000 (or whatever else she does with it) £185

 

total monthly outgoings 87000 £1200 approx

now this is without any bar fines or going out for a drink at all ..

what have i got wrong here ? where am i over budgeting. this works out to a higher cost of living than the UK which it is'nt mmmm ..

 

I did a post fairly recently where I detailed my expenditure for May but I'm damned if I can find it at the moment. Some comments on your figures from my own experience -

 

House rental - should be fine and in fact you may be able to rent a house for less than that.

 

I ony use baht buses. In May, I spent about 1,100 baht though this does vary from month to month depending on whether or not I charter a bus on a rainy night or in the early hours of the morning. Depending on where you plan on staying, you may have no option but to charter.

 

Household sundries - should be OK.

 

Contents insurance - I pay around 500 baht per month for 2,000,000 baht's worth of cover. I also have travel insurance, which also costs around 500 baht per month.

 

Cable tv should be around 250 baht per month. Satellite is around 1,600 to 2,000 or so depending on which package you choose.

 

Electricity and water. I seldom pay more than 1,500 baht per month. I use the aircon as little as possible. My bedroom only has a ceiling fan, which is far better and costs less than 1 baht an hour to run. View Talay don't allow you to use gas in their condos for safety reasons (or so I've been told). Also, I don't do any cooking at home, which helps keep my costs down.

 

Food - if this includes alcohol probably OK though likely to be on the high side.

 

Health insurance - should be less than 4,000 baht at your age - unless you're going to insure your tirak as well

 

Tirak allowance - quite generous.

 

One point to bear in mind are all these one-off costs such as buying a printer for your laptop or PC, side trips to other parts of Thailand or holidays outwith Thailand.

 

I usually manage to keep my routine monthly outlays to around 80,000 baht though I suspect that I may fail this month.

 

I think once you've lived here for a while, you could find that you're spending a bit less than you're allowing for but it's always better to under estimate your income and over estimate your expenditure.

 

Good luck with your move,

 

Alan

[pattysteve 34]

http://www.fincalc.com/bud_05.asp?id=14159...sponse_type=PDF

 

This is the best calc. ive found for determining your budget and how long it will last.

[whitespider 1]

Hybrid

 

Can I ask - how are you going to "retire" here by renting a house. I am no expert but I understand that a retirement visa requires a property purchase here. I could be wrong as its all a bit up in the air at the moment. Also I believe you have to be over 50 - again its not my field so not sure.

 

Are you MARRIED to your Tilac? if not how are you going to get around the 90 day maximum stay rules?

 

 

Im not trying to put you off, I moved here with a LOT less than you have and a family to raise (wife and 2 kids) but we have done just fine building several businesses.

[pattysteve 34]

Over 50 YES

 

Need to buy a property NO.

[whitespider 1]

Over 50 YES

 

Need to buy a property NO.

 

Thanks Pattysteve - I understand its the Investment Visa that requires a property visa.

 

I have just seen that he says he is 40 anyway. If 40 and not married how would he get round the new 90 day rules - if you know?

 

My visa requires a 12 monthly renewal and showing the details of my income and capital but I AM married. From what I can gather its a bit difficult now to live here permanently if you are not entitled to that level of visa.

Edited September 21, 2006 by whitespider

[pattysteve 34]

The only other way i know is to get type O none immigrant visa,multiple entry.This visa is valid for 12 mnths and gives you 90 days before having to do a visa run then another 90 days,if you time your last visa run just before the 12mnths is up it will last 15mnths.Then its a trip back to UK US etc. to get a new type O.

 

Hope this helps.

 

I have 2 buddies living in LOS now who use this method(both under 50)

[hybrid 1]

Hybrid

 

Can I ask - how are you going to "retire" here by renting a house. I am no expert but I understand that a retirement visa requires a property purchase here. I could be wrong as its all a bit up in the air at the moment. Also I believe you have to be over 50 - again its not my field so not sure.

 

Are you MARRIED to your Tilac? if not how are you going to get around the 90 day maximum stay rules?

Im not trying to put you off, I moved here with a LOT less than you have and a family to raise (wife and 2 kids) but we have done just fine building several businesses.

 

i had misread what a class O non immi visa was .. had thought it was valid for 12 months which it is, but not noticed it was 90 day in country max .. mmm ..

 

half way thru a CTEFL course at the moment so may have to look up the work permit path sooner rarther than later

marrying just for the visa is not an option

Edited September 21, 2006 by hybrid

[wacmedia 277]

Hi,

 

I feel this poster will succeed as he is thinking things through and has assets which he has handled astutely in the past.

[whitespider 1]

The only other way i know is to get type O none immigrant visa,multiple entry.This visa is valid for 12 mnths and gives you 90 days before having to do a visa run then another 90 days,if you time your last visa run just before the 12mnths is up it will last 15mnths.Then its a trip back to UK US etc. to get a new type O.

 

Hope this helps.

 

I have 2 buddies living in LOS now who use this method(both under 50)

 

PattySteve - yes thats right, I have a Non Imm O - but you have to have a REASON to apply, i.e. be married to a Thai National to get that type of visa - as i understand it anyway. I can remember when I applied I had to produce a marriage certificate to get it. That was a while ago now so maybe its chamged.

[pattysteve 34]

PattySteve - yes thats right, I have a Non Imm O - but you have to have a REASON to apply, i.e. be married to a Thai National to get that type of visa - as i understand it anyway. I can remember when I applied I had to produce a marriage certificate to get it. That was a while ago now so maybe its chamged.

 

Naaaaaaaaah.

 

Its only 2 mnths ago i gave my buddy a lift to Hull,got the visa in 20 minutes flat,no specific reasons needed.

[whitespider 1]

i had misread what a class O non immi visa was .. had thought it was valid for 12 months which it is, but not noticed it was 90 day in country max .. mmm ..

 

half way thru a CTEFL course at the moment so may have to look up the work permit path sooner rarther than later

marrying just for the visa is not an option

 

Hybrid I agree with Wacmedia that you have every chance of success because you are thinking it out. Most "failures" here simply fail to plan.

 

The Non Imm O visa IS for 12 months and you CAN still just do border runds every 90 days on those. At the end of the 12 months you have to go to an accredited consulate to renew i.e. Penang or back to UK.

 

Don't forget that a Work Permit also requires a visa - a work permit is just that it is NOT a visa in its own right.

 

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/288.0.html

[hybrid 1]

PattySteve - yes thats right, I have a Non Imm O - but you have to have a REASON to apply, i.e. be married to a Thai National to get that type of visa - as i understand it anyway. I can remember when I applied I had to produce a marriage certificate to get it. That was a while ago now so maybe its chamged.

 

when i read up on it refered to visiting freinds/partners as well .. i was on this path for the non-immi class O using the LT TGF as the reason as she would be living with me