British passports

[dirtydawg 11]

whas you takin the piss from me crackerpot?

[Crackpot 2]

Me, Austin ?

Never.

 

I never take the piss out of the mentally afflicted

[Rhoel 2]

Anyone who has doubts about the death penalty should read the Lynette White murder history - 3 Cardiff guys, all lowlifes, were convicted of the crime and gaoled: Had the death penalty been in vogue, they would have awung. Last year, a DNA match convicted a single local guy for the murder, to which he has now admitted.

 

The problem with the death penalty is it assumes the police are both honest and efficient. Niether are true.

 

As for miscarriages ofjustice, anyone with a good knowledge of the Cromwell Street murders, has a very unconfortable feeling about the veracity of Rosemary Wests conviction. It centers arounf some 600 missing bones never found at the house ... it meant the murdersd were cpmmitted elsewhere, yet the mainplank of the police case was she must have known what was happening in her own house and therefore, been party to it.

 

When you talk about the death penalty, you have to be 110% certain of the accuracy of the verdict - too often, history has later shown later facts which mean the wrong person swung.

 

As for a separate law for terrorism ... since this would require a relaxation the very stringent standards of evidence needed to gain a conviction, it would certainly lead to miscarriages of justice ... Check out the contents of Camp Cuba ... many are there because the Americans paid the Afgan locals money if they identified terrorists living in the country ... and surprise, surprise, the locals found lots and lots of nasty foreign terrorists living in their country ::) Dig a little deeper, and you will discover that the locals not only got the US tip-off money but the guys house, land and other wealth too -  funny that, just a coincidence then that these guys has been bitching over the land ownership for ages before the US arrived.

 

BTW, how did a passport/visa thread end up in a muck-slinging debate on the death penalty ... bring back OT

[snips_whispers 0]

Winston/Duffab.

 

as most British moslems don't consider this country as theirs ( nor do I ) They can't be charged.

 

 

 

please explain????

[snips_whispers 0]

they should get a plane ticket to kabul, or any other such place, and then be made to work off the fare, ie break rocks for a fortnight, then they should be given a bowl of rice,and then fuck em!

 

when they get home no doubt they will be claiming benifit, get a house to live in, and probably try to sue the governement.

 

balls!,leave em in cuba.

[Crackpot 2]

No sir !

Detention without trial or correct representation goes against everything that democracy means.

 

I dont agree with what they did but neither do I agree with kangaroo courts or holding people without trial.

 

Their detention in Guantanamo bay is illegal, absolutely, completely and totally illegal. But the US doesnt care, ,,,,,untill someone does it to them.

 

When they return to the UK they should be treated as anyone else who is suspected of a crime, but from where Im sitting I cant see that they have committed any crime, Unlike the US and UK governments.

IMHO, The 5 Guantanamo detainees due to be released should be deported to Afghanistan for that government to deal with as their crimes (if any) were committed there

 

Acting on one's conscience is not a crime in the UK. and if the US or UK or any country for that matter were to attack a country for which I had sympathies I too would consider taking up arms against them.

I am not governed by my governments or the US's foreign policy.

 

The US's incursion in Afghanistan was not a war, but an attempt by the US to find OBL. If the acts of those in Guantanamo bay in aiding the Afghanis was a crime then so was the murder, destruction, rape and pillage done by the US and they should be tried by an international court, but they wont because they dont accept International courts nor allow their soldiers to be tried in them. The US has become the world leader in Bullying followed closely by the UK.

[Guest chrisgng22]

Waffle on crackers i dont agree with a word you say...

They were there to kill  English/American soldiers,

they went from the country that feeds and keeps them to KILL maybe there next door neighbours!

You and all the rest of the do-gooders can GTF..

Because i for 1 dont want the murdering bastards back here to start again when allah or who the fuck else calls for them to fight for the cause of their god..

[valentinoxxx 4]

No sir !

Detention without trial or correct representation goes against everything that democracy means.

 

I dont agree with what they did but neither do I agree with kangaroo courts or holding people without trial.

 

Their detention in Guantanamo bay is illegal, absolutely, completely and totally illegal. But the US doesnt care, ,,,,,untill someone does it to them.

 

When they return to the UK they should be treated as anyone else who is suspected of a crime, but from where Im sitting I cant see that they have committed any crime, Unlike the US and UK governments.

IMHO, The 5 Guantanamo detainees due to be released should be deported to Afghanistan for that government to deal with as their crimes (if any) were committed there

 

Acting on one's conscience is not a crime in the UK. and if the US or UK or any country for that matter were to attack a country for which I had sympathies I too would consider taking up arms against them.

I am not governed by my governments or the US's foreign policy.

 

The US's incursion in Afghanistan was not a war, but an attempt by the US to find OBL. If the acts of those in Guantanamo bay in aiding the Afghanis was a crime then so was the murder, destruction, rape and pillage done by the US and they should be tried by an international court, but they wont because they dont accept International courts nor allow their soldiers to be tried in them. The US has become the world leader in Bullying followed closely by the UK.

 

I wasn't expecting there to be a time where I would be almost in total agreement with you.

 

I'm perturbed by the utter vacuity of some of the comments/arguments in this thread.

[nidnoyham 30]

Baron, my statement about British muslims not considering this country to be their own, was based on 2 things.

 

1.

As far as I am aware, the granting of a British Passport involves no swearing of an oath to serve the Queen and country, only a written application form.

 

2.

Nasser Hussain, Englands cricket Captain, recently made a statement that British Moslems should be proud to play for their country. The poor bloke was ridiculed by the Pakistani and other Asian youth who thought he was barmy, if they were going to play cricket it would be

for their Motherland, I felt quite sorry for the man. He was trying to counter Norman Tebbits remark, that they are British when it suits, then when their county come to play England they are waiving Pakistani flags. A match played at Edgbaston against India or Pakistan must feel like an away game.

 

Cookoos born in other birds nests still turn out as Cookoos I suppose.

 

Whats worse, I just got back from LOS and its freezing.  

[Crackpot 2]

Waffle on crackers i dont agree with a word you say...

They were there to kill  English/American soldiers,

they went from the country that feeds and keeps them to KILL maybe there next door neighbours!

You and all the rest of the do-gooders can GTF..

Because i for 1 dont want the murdering bastards back here to start again when allah or who the fuck else calls for them to fight for the cause of their god..

 

The country that feeds them and keeps them?

AFAIK most of those coming from the UK had good jobs and paid for their own food and lodging. They probably contributed more to the state than they took out of it.

AND pardon me but as for calling them Murdering bastards, there is no evidence that they were combatants at all and no proof that they killed or harmed anyone. Would you be happy to be arrested and held without trial or representation for, say spitting in the street ??

 

The American and UK invasion of Afghanistan was totally illegal, they had no mandate from anyone for their unprovoked aggression.

 

The invasion was based on the (wrong) assumption that OBL was there

 

The invasion of Iraq was based on the (wrong) assumption that there were weapons of mass destruction

 

See a pattern forming here?

What do we do if good old Geeeowage Wubblya decides OBL is in the UK and decides to invade us ??

 

The principle of fighting for ones conscience has always been one supported by most if not all UK Governments and I doubt any action will be taken against them.

Whilst I may not support the cause I would wholeheartedly support the principle of the idea.

 

But look at the bigger picture here. With all the loss of freedoms in the UK over the last 10 years dont you see something else happenning here?. The quietness of the UK Government over all of this is VERY worrying. They seem to be supporting Detention without trial or representation, and seem to be watching what the UK people are saying and doing.

How long untill we have detention without trial or representation here for Assault or theft or even speeding ?

Would you agree with that too??

 

 

Put the racist bits out of your mind and look at whats REALLY going on behind the scenes.

 

The US Kidnapped those UK Citizens illegally.

They illegally imprisoned them without trial

They have denied them legal representation

They will be denied a trial before a jury of their peers

They are being denied their basic Human rights.

 

All of that with the full co-operation of the UK Government.

 

If you knew me you would know Im not a do-gooder, neither am I an apologist for Muslims or Indians or immigrants.

I stopped my band playing a gig in Birmingham when I found out that Non-Indians would not be allowed in.

We protested at the MOBO awards, and refused to appear on one TV Indian programme due to its name

( a legal injunction forbids me naming it too)

 

However, this UK Government and the US Governments actions in Guantanamo bay have far-reaching repercussions for us all, and those few rights which we have must be defended, by any means.

 

PS did you note the increase in the staffing levels at MI5 ?

THATS Scary !!!!!

[Crackpot 2]

Baron, my statement about British muslims not considering this country to be their own, was based on 2 things.

 

1.  

As far as I am aware, the granting of a British Passport involves no swearing of an oath to serve the Queen and country, only a written application form.

Wrong !

For people not born in this country To obtain a UK Passport one has to take UK Citizenship which involves a sworn oath at a Soliciors Authorised for the Swearing of Oaths

 

 

 

2.  Nasser Hussain, Englands cricket Captain, recently made a statement that British Moslems should be proud to play for their country. The poor bloke was ridiculed by the Pakistani and other Asian youth who thought he was barmy, if they were going to play cricket it would be

for their Motherland, I felt quite sorry for the man. He was trying to counter Norman Tebbits remark, that they are British when it suits, then when their county come to play England they are waiving Pakistani flags. A match played at Edgbaston against India or Pakistan must feel like an away game.

And dont Aussies living here wave their flag when they watch a cricket match or other Nationalities wave their flags at other national events

 

JEESUS H Keerist !!

[nidnoyham 30]

Crackpot, thanx for puting me right on the swearing an oath. So they can be tried for treason- good !

 

The difference between Ausies & Kiwis waiving their flag is, they are mostly visitors working in the local pub to get enough money to do Europe. Not claiming to be Brits'. If people won't play cricket for this country, they aint gonna put on a uniform and fight for it, thats for sure.  Ausies & Kiwis, decendants from here, are more likely to.  

 

And it was Norman Tebbit that made the remark about the flags not me !

I was just explaining why Nasser Hussain made his comment- steady on son, this forum is getting like a battlefield

[Guest chrisgng22]

OK so what were they doing there???

taking a holiday taking in the sights,load of bollox,

can you imagine if they did get a trial here (and i dont care if its fair or unfair) how much it would cost us the British tax payer! just bcoz they went on holiday,im affraid they are lying murderers,who was that prat on the radio in ww2 he got shot just for making broadcasts on the radio  HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!

[Babepecker 0]

I just pity anyone who seriously identifies oneself with one's government - be it UK, US or any other. How are you going to feel about it when it turns out (and there is the increasing probability) that both, the Afghanistan and Iraq wars were not defence but pure aggression?

 

Additionally, nationalism is the cheap way of switching off one's conscience.  

 

Crackpot, I am afraid the guys you are replying to do not quite understand you. You are probably too moderate.  

[Crackpot 2]

Ah well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion

 

(even if it is wrong) ::) ::) ::)

[Jaffa 0]

The country that feeds them and keeps them?

AFAIK most of those coming from the UK had good jobs and paid for their own food and lodging. They probably contributed more to the state than they took out of it.

AND pardon me but as for calling them Murdering bastards, there is no evidence that they were combatants at all and no proof that they killed or harmed anyone. Would you be happy to be arrested and held without trial or representation for, say spitting in the street ??

 

The American and UK invasion of Afghanistan was totally illegal, they had no mandate from anyone for their unprovoked aggression.

 

The invasion was based on the (wrong) assumption that OBL was there

 

The invasion of Iraq was based on the (wrong) assumption that there were weapons of mass destruction

 

See a pattern forming here?

What do we do if good old Geeeowage Wubblya decides OBL is in the UK and decides to invade us ??

 

The principle of fighting for ones conscience has always been one supported by most if not all UK Governments and I doubt any action will be taken against them.

Whilst I may not support the cause I would wholeheartedly support the principle of the idea.

 

But look at the bigger picture here. With all the loss of freedoms in the UK over the last 10 years dont you see something else happenning here?. The quietness of the UK Government over all of this is VERY worrying. They seem to be supporting Detention without trial or representation, and seem to be watching what the UK people are saying and doing.

How long untill we have detention without trial or representation here for Assault or theft or even speeding ?

Would you agree with that too??

 

 

Put the racist bits out of your mind and look at whats REALLY going on behind the scenes.

 

The US Kidnapped those UK Citizens illegally.

They illegally imprisoned them without trial

They have denied them legal representation

They will be denied a trial before a jury of their peers

They are being denied their basic Human rights.

 

All of that with the full co-operation of the UK Government.

 

If you knew me you would know Im not a do-gooder, neither am I an apologist for Muslims or Indians or immigrants.

I stopped my band playing a gig in Birmingham when I found out that Non-Indians would not be allowed in.

We protested at the MOBO awards, and refused to appear on one TV Indian programme due to its name

( a legal injunction forbids me naming it too)

 

However, this UK Government and the US Governments actions in Guantanamo bay have far-reaching repercussions for us all, and those few rights which we have must be defended, by any means.

 

PS did you note the increase in the staffing levels at MI5 ?

THATS Scary !!!!!

 

Agree with you totally there Crackpot.

 

It is scarrey how some people can put the basic principles of democracy and law behind them in the heat of the moment.

 

It looks like we are going through another period of paronia like "the reds under the beds" scare back in the 50's.

 

Paronia whipped up by passing politicans should never be a reason to ignore laws that have been developed through centuries of reasoned debate.

 

Times of conflict is a time more than ever that people need to keep a cool head.

[Rhoel 2]

They were there to kill  English/American soldiers,

We only have the americans work of that. If the Amerricans have evidence, then they should declare it. But in the past, the US intelligence has been badly wrong and innocent Europeans have languished in prison because of mistaken idenity .... trying to correctly identify Arabs whose names appear on listes is extremely difficult. It is guarenteed errors will have been made ... great way to win friends and influence people.

 

Of the prisoners being returned to the UK, warrants have yet to be issued by the CPS ... there has to be some evidence put forward first that they have committed any offense. The fact they were in Afganistan means bugger all ... there are plenty of Brits in Afganistan legally.

 

Some of the Cuba detainees were lifted from countries other than Iraq and Afganistan - some from countries where thier own supreme courts ruled they could not be extradited - yet the US still put them on a plane and flew them out in the dead of night.

 

Put bluntly, the US administration is out of control, ignoring the UN, international law and other Human Rights protocals. Yet America will be the first to yell if any other countries mistreats a US national in the same way.

[nidnoyham 30]

Origionaly this post was started, to show my dismay about terrorist acts being commited around the world by British passport holders. I was asking how long before a crackdown on all such passports holders begins. For instance, if we had a dual passport  1 for indigeonous and 1 for immigrants, it would not affect us all, but that is not the case, we re all lumped together and must all be treated the same, ie USA, after several years of visa free travel, has changed its policy.

 

I just happenned to mention that I would like the Brit's held by the US in Cuba to be kept there, heres why.

 

If on Sep 10 2001,12 Arab moslems had been arrested by anti terrorist squad and the reason was they were susspected of planning to hi-jack 4 civil aircraft full of passengers, using only a small Stanley knife, take over the controls to fly them into the W.T.C/ Pentagon etc, you would probably have thought it a bit fantastic.

 

Now up to that date all they had done, was learn to fly a commercial aircraft, buy first class tickets for commercial flights, and pack a small sharp object in their hand baggage, not very much to go on is it ?

 

Now I am willing to be proved wrong if these people are released back to my country and live completely innocent lives.  I will hold my hands up and admit it. However if they are released, because they have commited no crime and weeks later they blow themselves and a dozen innocents to peices, how will the liberals among you feel ? Look around the world- Israel, Turkey, Iraq.

 

As far as the death penalty is concerned, it is irrelevent for such people, you cannot bring a dead person to trial.

 

Reds under the bed did not bomb as far as I am aware, and of course the staff at MI5 is growing, the threat is growing, they probably need people to tanslate 6 different languages for a start. The average copper could have a terrorist standing next to him planning something on his mobile with his mate, and would be none the wiser.

 

My point about us being  mixed together so much also brings in the reaction to such an act. Years ago if you had reason to protest against say, Pakistani Moslems, you had just the High Commision to gather round, now there are mosques all around the country to attack, and then the shite will hit the fan.

 

I am just a working man with familly, who has an oppinion, probably nowadays intrepreted as a racist. I'v been called worse !  

[Crackpot 2]

"I just happenned to mention that I would like the Brit's held by the US in Cuba to be kept there, heres why. "

 

Of course you would dear ! Out of sight out of mind eh?

It doesnt bother you that they just might be totally innocent and 2 years of their lives have been taken away by an ignorant frightened US administration who is hitting out at everyone other than their intended target ?.

It isnt a question of whether they are guilty or innocent, it IS question of the US breaking every known International law in imprisoning them.

It IS a fact of the US demanding everyone accepts THEIR standards, and disrepecting the International Community Standards, and the Internation Courts of Human Rights and war crimes.

The UK Governments tacit acceptance of that is disgusting but expected . They will stay quiet and then start to use detention of civilians without trial because it has been 'Internationally accepted'.

Wake up. Governments dont want people protesting, they dont want people disagreeing with them because they might get tossed off thier gravy train, and they will use all means possible to acheive their ends, this 'New' Labour mob especially.

 

 

"However if they are released, because they have commited no crime and weeks later they blow themselves and a dozen innocents to peices, how will the liberals among you feel ? Look around the world- Israel, Turkey, Iraq. "

 

What they do after they are released is actually irrelevant, and you cant detain someone for what you think they might do. Hindsight is a wonderfull thing.

Then again if someone locked YOU up and you lost 2 years of your life because of some ignorant, ill advised President, wouldnt you be a little pissed off ? I bloody well would.

What matters here is International Law, which is being cast aside by the bully boys of the US.

 

They do not accept International Law or Internationally agreed terms of Human rights, hence, they shouldnt expect the world community to treat them any different.

[valentinoxxx 4]

I'm proud of you ma boy.

 

I am deliberately staying out of this thread as this is something I feel passionately about. Many of these arguments have been covered in threads posted before the invasion.

 

Some of the subjects I covered before the invasion;

The Neo Conservatives involved with the http://www.newamericancentury.org/  

Their involvement in the attacking of Iraq and the reasons for going to war.

The fact that it had little or nothing to do with WMD.

The attempted linkage(failed) with Al Qaeda and Iraq.

The blantant lies from the US and UK government.

 

I surmise that few informed people still doubt that both GWB and TB lied.

I could believe that GWB simply didn't know as the holes in that man's depth of knowledge echo the open sapces in the Grand Canyon.(This was the man that did not know that there were Negroes residing in Brazil)

Tony Bliar, I cannot believe that he did not know that information that he put forward was simply false.

 

If I had access to this information, it seems ludicrous for our PM to claim that he did not know the claim that Iraq could and would launch WMD against our allies outside Iraq were blatantly untrue.

 

My belief in my research has been borne out over time.

 

There will always those who have a diferent view, though the paucity of the arguments I came up against at the time and that I have seen thus....

 

On the one hand we are told that Saddam Hussein oppressed his people, signified by imprisoning citizens and "killing his own people"

Yet no similar outrage of similar behaviour from the USA and Britain..

Is that because it is not your own people but someone else, somewhere else? Imprisoned without trial? Beaten to death by British soldiers.. 1.4 million killed by sanctions....

WMD? The mother of all bombs used in Afghanistan and Iraq by the USA, Cluster bombs containing depleted Uranium(as if they are not devastating enough anyway) used by the British....

Civilians killed in both invasions.

We hear so little about civilian casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq. Especially Iraq.

 

How sickening it was to see our PM saying that he did not want to attack Iraq. It was all in Saddam Hussein's hands he said. If he gave up the WMD all would be well.

 

They(USA &UK) KNEW where they were, so the UN Inspectors were sent to the sites that the BEST US intelligence informed them of. NOTHING!

When the UN Inspectors came back and said so, they were told by the US that they DEFINITELY had them so the fact that Saddam Hussein hadn't come up with them meant that he was lying.

So therefore the fact that he hadn't come up with them was forcing them to go to war against their will. YEAH RIGHT! So where are they?

 

When the public looked like they weren't swallowing that, they came up with the "killing his own people" chestnut.

Was it true? http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html

 

Make up your own mind.

 

Yet, on the other hand I still see some 'banging on about' '9-11.

As if an American life is worth more than anyone else's...

 

Oops! I wasn't going to get involved in this....

[nidnoyham 30]

Valentino,

 

This is about Brit's commiting terrorist action abroad & being held in Cuba.

 

Crackpot says you can't lock up people for what you think they may do! So we dont need a prevention of terrorism act ? We shouldn't be holding 15 suspects at Belsize Prison ? Just let them run free and pick up the peices after they do what terrorists do?

 

I am not banging on about Sep 11 as if Americans lives are worth more than others ( PEOPLE FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD WERE IN THOSE BUILDINGS ) I was merely pointing out that, the average western mind, would not have believed a fellow human being would commit such an attrocity. and with the flimsy evidence; had they been aprehended and charged, would never convince some people of their true intentions.

 

Crackpot says, what they do when they are released is irrelevant; not if your family is standing next to them at time of self-destruct it is'nt.

 

If such an act is commited in the U.K. can you immagine the civil unrest it will cause, that is why the Government is trying a " Prevention is better than cure approach"

 

I was not convinced with the reasoning for the invasion of Iraq and it was never mentioned as an aggenda.. In my job at LHR I met several Iraqi people and was impressed with their calm gentle nature. the job involved missing baggage from R.J. and they gave no greif to me or my colleges.

 

Most days a week you could come to my house and find in my front room, sharing a J, 2 Iraqi lads,an American, a converted moslim and my skinhead son, all getting on fine as mates, that's how I would like the world to be.

 

Its the bad guys from anywhere I wont tollerate.

I get enough lectures from the aforementioned lads about the American system, I really dont need anymore.

wev'e got the Micheal Moore books thanks.  

[Crackpot 2]

And what do I hear on the Radio this morning ?

 

"The US says it may keep those detainees in Guantanamo even if the tribunal finds them not guilty"

 

What you gonna do when they come for YOU ?

What you gonna do when you find YOUR telephone bugged

What you gonna do when you find your email scanned

What you gonna do when you have to ask permission to leave your house for a day out.

What you gonna do when they take your passport away

 

Its gonna happen, it already is.

[Crackpot 2]

Valentino,

 

Its the bad guys from anywhere I wont tollerate.

 

And you dont think a Regime that totally ignores International Human rights,and International Courts of Human rights ARENT 'Bad Guys' ??

[nidnoyham 30]

Crackpot.

 

They can scan my e-mails, bug my fone, all they will get is the same bollocks I write in these posts. It may ruffle a few feathers or send them to sleep- 1984 has come and gone mate.

 

Yes I am not impressed with the Hutton report, the sudden turn about by the rebels on tuition fees, the Euro, or the American influence in all countries regarding trade etc.

 

However I stand by my convictions that international

terrorism is a greater threat to the future of mankinds

way of life than all of these. We are all potential aggresors and victims, how do you cope with that as a Government ?

 

Israel and Thailand are building fences along their borders to eleminate the immediate threat, but in most western societies there is such a large influx of potential terrorists living alongside us, how do we determine who they are ? The IRA had sleepers here for years.

 

Remember the American moslem soldier in Iraq who lobbed a grenade into the officers tent ?

Can we recruit moslims into say, MI5 to assist with terrorism, how do you chose who you can trust in such a sensitve department ?

 

It is the future generations I am concered about as much as the immediate situation.  

[Crackpot 2]

Unless we stand up for our rights and Human rights against tyrannies like the US and UK Governments there wont be a future for anyone.