China Air, EVA Air, Cathay Pacific and Thai

[marcortez 0]

All four of these airlines are major players in the LAX to BKK route.

 

I am trying to understand the rhyme or reason why their pricing structure varies so much.

 

Thai airlines seems to always have the highest fares followed by Cathay Pacific, EVA and then China Air.

 

The odd promotion can change this, yes. But I believe for the most part, that day in and day out, the up/down pricing runs Thai, CP, EVA and CA.....in that order from high to low.

 

I would assume that the fees at LAX would be the same for these international carriers.

 

More than likely, a Asian flight attendent makes about the same salary and the flight crews, more or less equal.

 

Surely they have to be competitive?

 

A 747 is a 747, flying the northern route, head winds out and tail winds back.

 

They all fly about the same speed, with more or less the same loads.

 

Certainly (yeah think?) fuel costs can't be the big factor in pricing? Unless one airline has a up on "fuel futures"

 

Granted, the airport fees at Taipai and Hong Kong could be different and add to the ticket costs.

 

Then there is Thai airlines, that only have to pay fees at Swaaannapoom, as they fly non-stop from LAX, yet they are usually the priciest. Is it that touch of "Royal Silk" that ups the ante?

 

 

 

The manner of how airlines allocate tickets, at what price, is mind boggling to me.

 

Is there anyone out there who is "in the know" about ticket pricing, and your ok to share?

[Samsonite 181]

Whatever the traffic will bear.

BTW, I thought Thai Air had canceled the non-stop flights?

[joekicker 53]

I am trying to understand the rhyme or reason why their pricing structure varies so much.

 

Because price is only a part of choosing a flight, of course. For example, you might not want to stop over in Hong Kong, you might not want to leave at midnight, or you might think one airline's seats are better than another's.

 

If you only choose your flight by price, then they make it easy for you - three of the four are right out of your league and you don't have to sweat a thing.

[Emil 0]

Also factor in the hidden savings such as their frequent flyer program. I didn't 5 years ago and choose Eva because it was $150 cheaper than United. That mistake cost me $800 latter once I understood the FF program.

[marcortez 0]

Because price is only a part of choosing a flight, of course. For example, you might not want to stop over in Hong Kong, you might not want to leave at midnight, or you might think one airline's seats are better than another's.

 

If you only choose your flight by price, then they make it easy for you - three of the four are right out of your league and you don't have to sweat a thing.

 

 

 

Is this another "irony bird" swooping from above, or do you actually know "my league"?

 

Sweeping generalzations are not what I was looking for.

 

Obviously your not one of those "in the know" or you just choose to not share.

 

Fair enough.

 

 

 

Do you happen to know the TV series in the US called "House"?

 

It's about a doctor who's specialty is diagnostics in a large hospital.

 

He is brilliant in his thinking/diagnostics and usually ends up saving the life of the patient.

 

But along the way in saving the world, his mannerisms, ego, sarcasim and irony are enough to make a viewer want to strangle him, not to mention his staff. It's only TV yeah?

 

Dr House, meet JoeKicker

[Samsonite 181]

Management decisions concerning cost also, of course, factor into the pricing.

 

China Air for example uses the gates farthest away from the main terminal. Their lounges are also, usually, a long distance from their gates and if they have a view at all, it is rarely of the ramps or runways. Even their main lounge at their home base, TPE, doesn't have a single window. Their lounge at Don Muang did have a view of the ramp, but not their lounge at The King Power Shopping Mall (and airport), which looks out at the area on the other side of the terminal.

 

When routed through Hong Kong to BKK from TPE, China Air may require the passengers to get off the plane in Hong Kong and take a long walk that takes them right back to the same aircraft. By forcing the passengers to walk through the duty free shopping area the airline gets a discount on landing and gate fees.

 

All these things add up and allows the airlines to either offer lower prices and/or increase their profits.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Scalawag

[joekicker 53]

Is this another "irony bird" swooping from above, or do you actually know "my league"?

 

Is this just another personal pot shot or do you actually not know the meaning of "you"?

 

Sweeping generalzations are not what I was looking for.

 

A pointed question might have got you what you were looking for. I don't believe I could frame your question MORE sweepingly general than it was.

[marcortez 0]

A pointed question might have got you what you were looking for. I don't believe I could frame your question MORE sweepingly general than it was.

 

 

 

I got it now......rather than have some substance to answering a valid question, you choose to let fly the irony and sarcasim and take a pot shot at my "league"

 

I take pot shots at sarcasim, yes. If the shoe fits.....

[joekicker 53]

I got it now......rather than have some substance to answering a valid question, you choose to let fly the irony and sarcasim and take a pot shot at my "league"

 

Heyzeus! Don't be so anal. Again, more clearly: I have no idea what YOUR league is marcortez. But in the sense of general-you, having one airline with the lowest price makes it simple shopping for you if your league is price-only. General-you, geddit now?

[marcortez 0]

Heyzeus! Don't be so anal. Again, more clearly: I have no idea what YOUR league is marcortez. But in the sense of general-you, having one airline with the lowest price makes it simple shopping for you if your league is price-only. General-you, geddit now?

 

 

 

Joe,

 

You stated "my league", now you have no idea what my league is?. If you have no idea, then why on earth would you want to make that statement in the first place? I call it sarcasim.....you can call it anything you wish.

 

Nowhere did I espouse the LOWEST price would be my choice. I simply thought(my mistake sure) that since there are many international airline patrons hereabouts, someone might have some clue as to how and why the various carriers price their tickets. And if so inclined, inform those of us who patronize these carriers, that just perhaps we can make the best choice(s)

 

 

 

I am only anal when it comes to continuing and unrepentant sarcasim, that serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

[MC_Ldop 40]

A 747 is a 747, flying the northern route, head winds out and tail winds back.

 

This isn't true at all. The planes can be configured differently, allowing for different seat widths/pitches, amounts leg room, amount of passengers, combination of coach/business/first passengers, etc. Look at these two seat charts of different 747s for example.

 

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Thai_Airw...47-400_7442.php

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Eva_Airwa...747-400_380.php

 

You're also paying for different levels of service. Thai Airways, especially in premium classes, is one of the best airlines I've ever experience -- just a notch below Singapore Airlines.

 

Joe also made a few valid points. You missed some perfectly fine information there by being too sensitive.

[marcortez 0]

This isn't true at all.

Joe also made a few valid points. You missed some perfectly fine information there by being too sensitive.

 

 

 

Thank you for setting me straight on 1/3rd of the "this isn't true at all" without resorting to sarcasim to me personally.

 

Not only do members here try and gleen information and opinions, it turns many off when information and opinions are laced with sarcasim and condesending responses.

 

 

 

When I first joined this site, I was anxious to get as much info as I possibly could in advance of a first time trip.

 

There was this guy on here at the time with the handle "Winston Churchill" who blasted me at every turn with sarcasim and attacks on my intentions, veracity and stupidy.

 

I was new here, my skin was thin and I thought this guy had it out for me...literally!!

 

Rang up Pattaya Pete ( moderator at the time) on a PM asked him why such guys are allowed to intimidate and attack new members.

 

His response to me at the time was....I should learn to toughen up my skin and just let it go in one ear and out the other. He went on to say that certain guys get some perverted source of glee at being sarcastic and hateful.

 

Ok...I can live with that. Now along comes some new guys on here, clamoring for information and advice.

 

And there is still the same type of guys, being sarcastic and condesending at every turn here.. Joe is one of those guys.

 

Doesn't make him a bad man per se, at times he can be informative, but I just wish the hell he could back off the smart ass, sarcastic remarks.

 

It's counter productive in my view and does nothing to advance the intelligence of "Joe" average Thai monger.

 

Case in point.....I just asked today, the tech forum, how to use the quote function to quote only a certain phrase in a posters message. BM mykl provided the information I needed EXACTLY. Then along comes BM StarBright and says "It's not that difficult" with a head scratching smily!!!

[MC_Ldop 40]

Thank you for setting me straight on 1/3rd of the "this isn't true at all" without resorting to sarcasim to me personally.

 

Happy to help -- just wanted to point out that there's a huge different in seat types and service. Service on Singapore Airlines makes any American airline look like a joke. The seat size, seat pitch, and entertainment options also factor into the price. As Joe said, scheduling is also part of the deal.

 

 

And there is still the same type of guys, being sarcastic and condesending at every turn here.. Joe is one of those guys.

 

I don't know what your history is with Joe, but in this case I think he was making a harmless comment. He said:

 

If you only choose your flight by price, then they make it easy for you

 

I did not see this as him addressing you personally, but rather saying the same as, "If one only chose flights by price...."

 

Oh well, I'll let you two have at it.

 

:)

[whilliam_mancon 2]

Also factor in the hidden savings such as their frequent flyer program. I didn't 5 years ago and choose Eva because it was $150 cheaper than United. That mistake cost me $800 latter once I understood the FF program.

 

 

Well this is true, but marcortez if you only fly a couple of times a year, don´t even think about any frequent flyer miles, it will just be a waste of time, just go with whatever deal that is cheapest.

 

 

 

 

 

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Well this is true, but marcortez if you only fly a couple of times a year, don´t even think about any frequent flyer miles, it will just be a waste of time, just go with whatever deal that is cheapest.

 

One of the worst pieces of advice ever given on this board.

[marcortez 0]

Happy to help -- just wanted to point out that there's a huge different in seat types and service. Service on Singapore Airlines makes any American airline look like a joke. The seat size, seat pitch, and entertainment options also factor into the price. As Joe said, scheduling is also part of the deal.

 

 

 

 

:)

 

 

 

Thanks again MC.....let's keep this going and see if anyone is perhaps a former travel agent, ticketing agent or has the inside scoop on how airlines price their tickets. And willing to share.

 

Through the proverbial grapevine, I have heard that certain seats are allocated to travel agencies, among others, and certain blocks of seats are provided at X price and others are priced at X.

 

 

 

I have spend literally hours, going from various so called "consolidaters" sites to "search all" sites such as Kayak, Vayama and a host of others.

 

From what I can see, the prices for flights are usually within a few bucks of each other, for the most part.

 

And more often than not, prices on the airlines sites are a tad lower.

 

Some accurate rhyme or reason or "inside scoop" would prove invaluable me thinks.

 

 

 

Let's put service levels, seat pitch and seatback entertainment systems on the back burner.

 

Myself, and more than likely, many others who fly international carriers would like to be better informed and possibly included in, pricing "inside scoop", whereas we can be a better informed customer, price wise.

 

 

 

I know this may be impossible as anyone who has this "inside" scoop may not want to spill the beans.

 

It's like my favorite fishing hole, I ain't telling cause then too many fisherman will find out and now my favorite fishing hole is just another wide spot in the sea.

Edited October 16, 2008 by marcortez

[Hub 203]

Well this is true, but marcortez if you only fly a couple of times a year, don´t even think about any frequent flyer miles, it will just be a waste of time, just go with whatever deal that is cheapest.

 

 

Two RT tickets from North America and signing up for one FF credit card (which can be cancelled and renewed every 6-8 months) will gain you about enough FF miles for a RT to Thailand.

 

Thats 19K (one trip), 19K (second trip) and 25K (FF credit card) = 63K miles

 

So the very next year he has one free trip and flies for half price. Factor that in as a 25% discount on four tickets.

 

This is completely disregarding the other perks FF mileage nay bring - free upgrades, lounge use, etc.

 

So unless the FF is at least 25% cheaper, one should not ignore FF miles.

 

What is even better, sometimes the FF miles can bused used to get a partner airline (Cathay, Malaysion,etc)

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Thanks again MC.....let's keep this going and see if anyone is perhaps a former travel agent, ticketing agent or has the inside scoop on how airlines price their tickets. And willing to share.

 

Through the proverbial grapevine, I have heard that certain seats are allocated to travel agencies, among others, and certain blocks of seats are provided at X price and others are priced at X.

I have spend literally hours, going from various so called "consolidaters" sites to "search all" sites such as Kayak, Vayama and a host of others.

 

From what I can see, the prices for flights are usually within a few bucks of each other, for the most part.

 

And more often than not, prices on the airlines sites are a tad lower.

 

Some accurate rhyme or reason or "inside scoop" would prove invaluable me thinks.

Let's put service levels, seat pitch and seatback entertainment systems on the back burner.

 

Myself, and more than likely, many others who fly international carriers would like to be better informed and possibly included in, pricing "inside scoop", whereas we can be a better informed customer, price wise.

I know this may be impossible as anyone who has this "inside" scoop may not want to spill the beans.

 

It's like my favorite fishing hole, I ain't telling cause then too many fisherman will find out and now my favorite fishing hole is just another wide spot in the sea.

 

Simple really ......... all four airlines that you mentioned operate well-developed, computerised yield management systems. Different classes of tickets are offered at various price levels and with varying restrictions dependant upon historical data i.e. the system knows that at, for example "flight day -100", x number of seats should have sold at y price. If sales are less than expected then seats are shifted to a lower (cheaper) booking class (more restrictions). If sales are more than expected then the opposite happens. This is ongoing in each booking class in real time and is pretty accurate on established routes. It's simple supply and demand but has to be very efficient because once the aircraft departs the empty seats can't be sold or even given away.

 

The airline's internal costs don't really come into it, nor do passenger facilities. It's all about passenger yields at the optimum price.

[marcortez 0]

Simple really ......... all four airlines that you mentioned operate well-developed, computerised yield management systems. Different classes of tickets are offered at various price levels and with varying restrictions dependant upon historical data i.e. the system knows that at, for example "flight day -100", x number of seats should have sold at y price. If sales are less than expected then seats are shifted to a lower (cheaper) booking class (more restrictions). If sales are more than expected then the opposite happens. This is ongoing in each booking class in real time and is pretty accurate on established routes. It's simple supply and demand but has to be very efficient because once the aircraft departs the empty seats can't be sold or even given away.

 

The airline's internal costs don't really come into it, nor do passenger facilities. It's all about passenger yields at the optimum price.

 

 

 

Based on your personal experience, what would be the optimal time to purchase your ticket?..given these well developed computer systems are no doubt, much smarter than I am.

 

Kinda, sorta, seems logical to delay that purchase, to within a short window before that flight takes to the air. Thinking being... that if there are empty seats, the airline just might want to discount them, rather than have them go empty??..

 

 

 

Do you know of any way to check the passenger load before making the booking?

 

I know, once I make a booking, I can then navigate to the "seat selection" page and get an idea of the load at that time. Often, I have changed my seat selection, up until that option is closed.....for the purpose of trying to get a seat next to me that is vacant.

 

A gold mine perhaps, if that could be done prior to pressing the "book now" page.

[NorCalKid 1]

Two RT tickets from North America and signing up for one FF credit card (which can be cancelled and renewed every 6-8 months) will gain you about enough FF miles for a RT to Thailand.

 

Thats 19K (one trip), 19K (second trip) and 25K (FF credit card) = 63K miles

 

So the very next year he has one free trip and flies for half price. Factor that in as a 25% discount on four tickets.

 

This is completely disregarding the other perks FF mileage nay bring - free upgrades, lounge use, etc.

 

So unless the FF is at least 25% cheaper, one should not ignore FF miles.

 

What is even better, sometimes the FF miles can bused used to get a partner airline (Cathay, Malaysion,etc)

 

 

Not to mention if you(or anybody else, I thought I should probably add that the way this is going.) get status with the airline they will usually give you even more miles.

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Based on your personal experience, what would be the optimal time to purchase your ticket?..given these well developed computer systems are no doubt, much smarter than I am.

 

Kinda, sorta, seems logical to delay that purchase, to within a short window before that flight takes to the air. Thinking being... that if there are empty seats, the airline just might want to discount them, rather than have them go empty??..

 

 

 

Do you know of any way to check the passenger load before making the booking?

 

I know, once I make a booking, I can then navigate to the "seat selection" page and get an idea of the load at that time. Often, I have changed my seat selection, up until that option is closed.....for the purpose of trying to get a seat next to me that is vacant.

 

A gold mine perhaps, if that could be done prior to pressing the "book now" page.

 

marcortez,

 

My knowledge of the airline market out of LAX is zero. I once flew into SFO, but that's about as near as I've come to the place.

 

What i do know is that, for example, an airline has 10 seats left and knows that historically demand will be for 30 seats then they aren't going to be discounting anything. Something called price elasticity of demand kicks in at that point.

[Emil 0]

Not to mention if you(or anybody else, I thought I should probably add that the way this is going.) get status with the airline they will usually give you even more miles.

 

Not only the bonus miles but additional luggage allowance, better seating and free access to lounges. Also not all of the airlines require the same amount of miles for a freebie. Some 60k, some 70k and others 100k.

[bigdelta 46]

Joe,

 

You stated "my league", now you have no idea what my league is?. If you have no idea, then why on earth would you want to make that statement in the first place? I call it sarcasim.....you can call it anything you wish.

 

Nowhere did I espouse the LOWEST price would be my choice. I simply thought(my mistake sure) that since there are many international airline patrons hereabouts, someone might have some clue as to how and why the various carriers price their tickets. And if so inclined, inform those of us who patronize these carriers, that just perhaps we can make the best choice(s)

 

 

 

I am only anal when it comes to continuing and unrepentant sarcasim, that serves no useful purpose whatsoever.

 

Hola,pinche,I'll try to help a bit.The cost structure is a huge determining factor,obviously.What the particular airline has paid for fuel,crew salary,aircraft lease,their airport lease for every square foot is the determining factor for fares in a nutshell.The fixed fees,such as customs and immigration are standard as are landing fees,unless an airport was begging for your service and cut you a break on facility fees and lannding fees.Obviously if you have a great lease,pay your staff shite or have your fuel hedged below the current rate (or higher as some airlines have and it cost 1 US carrier several hundred million so far) you can charge less.Having spent 32 years in the industry has given me some insight.

As far as location of lounges being a money saver,probably not.You generally want to have a lounge near your gates,but no suitable space may be available or do you want to inherit another carriers lounge and refurbish it?Or build your own from scratch.I can share a few stories about what my company did in the late 80s when we built our own concourse in Orlando.

Basically what it costs to fly that aircraft,1 seat,differs greatly in some cases.

CASM vs RASM -cost vs revenue per seat.The difference between the two is your profit (or loss).For many years,my company was below the industry average,well below,the yield.Now we are at 103% and this difference is night and day.

Edited October 18, 2008 by LTGTR

[lookingtoswing4 0]

Whatever the traffic will bear.

BTW, I thought Thai Air had canceled the non-stop flights?

 

Non-stop have ceased, but there is no change of planes on the new route. They sold their A-340's and replaced the route with 777. As a result, they need a refuel stop in Osaka, both directions. This was a recent change and required me to make major changes to my upcoming NYE trip to Pattaya. All worked-out well except that Nova Platinum has yet to re-confirm my reservation change request.

[Brown1950 67]

Non-stop have ceased, but there is no change of planes on the new route. They sold their A-340's and replaced the route with 777. As a result, they need a refuel stop in Osaka, both directions. This was a recent change and required me to make major changes to my upcoming NYE trip to Pattaya. All worked-out well except that Nova Platinum has yet to re-confirm my reservation change request.

 

Thai Airways have decided to continue non-stop BKK-LAX until 31.1.09 using A345. Thai have been unable to sell/lease their fleet of 4 x A345 so rumour has it some will be changed to other routes (Milan) etc