Evil Penevil

OK, three of the gang have checked in, when are we going to hear from the ventriloquist? Evil

Yes, papillon's Gang of Four is indeed all here, so it is better to address the ventriloquist than his dummies. Papillon, I know you've ducked every question I've asked you, but maybe you'll answer just one. Why is it so hard for you just to ignore this thread and every other thread about Hell/Eden? I have no problem simply skipping the posts by you and your chums when I encounter them elsewhere on the board. As the posts by the members of the Gang of Four almost never contain anything worth reading, I just pretend they don't exist. If you feel the same way about my posts, if you're not interested in Hell/Eden, why do you even click on the thread, much less bother to post in it? Why not stop all the name calling and ignore the Hell thread? Evil

torrenova- It's safe to say that is a source of embarassment with which you personally will never be faced. Evil

Here's a very basic, but clean, no-roach hotel with A/C at 700B/night, close to Nana: Thai House Inn An even cheaper place is NumberOne Guest House Trivia Question: Why does this place occupy a special place in the history of Bangkok P4P? It will be fun to see if any "veterans" get the answer right. Another lower Suk hotel, but at 1,400B/night: Ever Rich Inn Not the best location, but very low price: Honey Hotel Way outside the Suk area, but great value for money under 650B/night. Taxi/moto will get you to the lower Suk. The colorfully named NasaVegasHotel \ A good one on the lower Suk if you can afford 1,300B/night: Stable Lodge Another great choice, probably best value for money of all at 1,400B/night, but on Soi 18: Town Lodge Evil

From what I could see, you posts definitely put you in the category of deserving a warning. Evil

On the home page (the one the link goes to)), there's a box with scrolling "Breaking News" that lists guest-friendly hotels and changes in the policies of hotels that were previously GF. You can read it there. But you could send an email to the hotel and ask straight up if there is a joiner fee for overnight guests. Evil

It's nice to see a kinder, gentler touristman. I'm happy my posts have had such a persuasive (and positive) effect on you. But I do have to correct one of your misstatements - the Hell Club is exceptional value for money when compared with the establishments that are usually suggested as its competitors. I'll expand on that idea at length in an upcoming post, but not in this thread. Evil

Take this with however many grains of salt you want, but there's information on a hotel booking agency's website that the Jasmine Suites is no longer guest friendly and charges a joiner fee even if you book a double. In the past, all the info I've had from that site has been accurate. The Swiss Grottino is a good choice. The proprietor, a Swiss hospitality professional, also runs another small hotel, the Town Lodge, on Soi 18. The TL isn't as conveniently located as SG, but has a free tuk-tuk service to Cowboy. Evil

Just one more example of the unique services the Hell Club offers to its customers as it brings a totally new standard of excellence to Pattaya. Happy Songkran to everyone, customers and staff alike, at the Hell Club. Evil

Maybe I should revise my OP. A poster on another board mentioned "Who let the dogs out," that classic one-hit wonder that is otherwise associated with professional baseball in the U.S. It is probably the most appropriate gogo bar song. If it doesn't describe the girls, it describes the customers, so it has universal applicability. Evil :

I don't think I'd really like to hear most of these songs, but they are appropriate for gogos. All have been published, but I'm not sure they have all been recorded, although most have. Evil The number one, all-time most appropriate song for a gogo bar customer is: Last Night I Went to Bed with a "10" and Woke this Morning with a "2" by Willie Nelson followed,in no particular order, by: Why Don't We Get Drunk and Screw by Jimmy Buffett "All the Great Hits" I Bought the Shoes that Just Walked Out on Me By Joe C. Simpson (BMI) Get Off the Table, Mabel (The Two Dollars is for the Beer) by Bull Moose Jackson I Kissed Her On the Lips, and Left Her Behind for You by Scott Orr Feelin' Single and Seein' Double by Emmy Lou Harris (Elite Hotel album) - written by Wayne Kemp (BMI) (maybe this one I should suggest to Cerberus) I Would Have Wrote You A Letter, But I Couldn't Spell !!*@!" , by Sam The Sham & The Pharaohs (same guys who hit it big with Wooly Bully. It came out in 1968 and was their last Top 40 song.) She Got The Gold Mine And I Got The Shaft by Jerry Reed (there's an alternate version called She Got The Ring And I Got The Finger ) If Fingerprints Showed Up On Skin, Wonder Whose I'd Find On You. by Freddie Hart (BMI) Get Your Tongue Out Of My Mouth, Because I'm Kissing You Goodbye. (also the title of a 1993 book by Playboy magazine columnist Cynthia Heimel.) You're Not Free & I'm Not Easy written by Herb Coleman & Robert Morrison (ASCAP) Feelin' Single and Drinkin' Doubles Written by Donald Fagan & Johnnie Masters (BMI)

Those were prophetic words, papillion (or a call to action on your part?) One more of your chums in this thread and you'll have four of a kind. Or maybe you count two of them only as the jokers in the deck? Evil

Yeah, that's me - a somewhat overenthusiastic patron! Tentogodo- You make perfectly valid points. There is nothing in your post I'd disagree with. Not everyone will want to go to Hell/Eden, not everyone who does go will like it. That's natural. Hell/Eden is simply one more variation on the LOS P4P scene that will appeal to some and not to others. For those who don't like or don't want or can't hunt for ladies, it is a good option. That is the main point I'm making. Evil

Talen- Almost all the longer articles I write get posted on multiple sites, sometimes by myself, sometimes by others. People have remembered reading a piece I posted on one board and asked me to post it on another. You certainly can have read that paragraph elsewhere, but not on Stickman's site (although other articles of mine do appear on Stick's site). I have written on several occasions, in different versions, about my experiences with Thumper at the diplomatic reception. Evil

It is located on Soi LK Metro, which is an L-shaped street between Soi Diana Inn and Soi Buakhao. There are several interesting establishments on LK Metro which are worth a visit. This map may help:

This is follow-up to Inside the Hell Club , which gave a basic run-down of what first-time visitors can expect. If you've never visited Hell, you might want to check out the earlier thread. Let's assume you have some knowledge of the fine establishment, but want to make sure you get the maximum out your time in Hell. I'll try to give some advice based on the five nights I spent in the company of Hell's belles as well as many, many days and nights with the ladies of Eden, the Bangkok club on which the Hell Club is modeled. I'd also encourage other clients of Hell/Eden to contribute their advice and experiences as well. Each of us has his own particular twist on things and your individual approach may suggest some tips to a another hobbyist. Understanding the Hell Club Concept The Hell Club isn't a gogo or beer bar or a massage parlor. It's a brothel that features a classic lineup and some guys don't feel comfortable with that. They want to be able to grope - excuse me, socialize and flirt with - the girls for the price of a drink. It doesn't work that way at Hell/Eden. What goes on behind closed doors after the punter makes his choice is pretty much unrestricted at Hell/Eden, but prior to that, it's quite staid. Also, there's no such thing as a bar fine at Hell/Eden. A B/F is a fee paid to establishments such as go go or beer bars to take the lady off premises. Fees for sexual services are a separate negotiation direct with the lady. At Hell/Eden, you pay a fee that covers the lady's (or ladies') sexual services. Tipping is customary and appreciated, but tips aren't asked for, nor will the service you get be in any way tied to a tip. I appreciate that many punters prefer go gos or MPs because of the different dynamic involved in choosing a girl. It's an individual choice. What's important is to understand that the Hell isn't a gogo or beer bar and you'll be very disappointed if you act as if it were. In-House Versus Take-Away, Porn Star Versus GFE I count myself among the bigger fans of Eden, but I also understand that a 90-minute in-house session can feel somewhat contrived and mechanical. I don't experience it that way myself, although I appreciate that others can. There simply isn't enough time to establish real rapport and still have the standard Eden session with all it involves. Once you get to know a few of the girls, that feeling largely disappears and ladies become more spontaneous. But until the girls know you, they feel a bit of pressure to fill every second of the 90 minutes with something sexual. The ladies have told me that if they aren't sucking some guys' dicks 10 seconds after the wash up is finished, those guys will complain the girls were trying to "run out the clock" on them. That type of customer doesn't want any chit-chat, just 90 minutes of intense sex. Also, some guys are adamant about coming at least twice, preferably three or four times. That requires very intense activity on the part of ladies, and again, not much time for small talk. An in-house session is 90 minutes and will never end any earlier unless you want it to. You can come an unlimited number of times at Eden, it's not like the places where if you come once, you are finished. The ladies will normally ask you how many times you want to come. They do that to try to judge how active a session it will be. Obviously a guy who says he wants to come five or six times isn't looking for a GFE, but one who says "once, maybe twice," is probably expecting a slower-paced session that includes more talk and gentle foreplay. It's also a good idea to ask for a lady who speaks relatively good English as your "lead lady." That way you can explain clearly to her what you want. The ladies of Eden are very sensitive to the wishes of customers, but they can't read minds. You have to explain (or show) them what you want. You have to be realistic, though. Ninety minutes doesn't allow for much of a GFE, it's more a porn-star experience. That's why I prefer take-away. The best way to guarantee a mind-boggling two-lady session is to first take one lady overnight, get to know her a bit, then go back and ask her to pick a friend for the two-lady session. Of course, that depends as well on the thickness of your wallet, but what the hell, you're on holiday! The fee per lady for a session outside Hell beginning at 10 p.m. and ending at 6.00 a.m. (overnight takeaway, eight hours) is 3,000 baht. If you want two ladies, the total cost would be 6,000 baht. Again, I emphasize this isn't a barfine. It is the fee for the ladies' services. It is a fixed price and not negotiable. Don't make a fool out of yourself by trying to bargain. What you choose to tip the lady on top of this fee is up to you. Also, what you choose to do during that eight hours is up to you. If you want to take the lady to dinner, go to a bar or club, or head straight back to your hotel room, it's up to you. I've had some really over-the-top sessions (all-nighters with five, four, three ladies in addition to numerous one- and two- lady sessions). It has all been good, VERY GOOD. A lot of fun, joking, going to clubs and bars, then incredible sessions in the sack. The ladies who were deep throat specialists have rocked my universe (and my rocks) in particular. You can read about one particularly memorable overnight session I had with two Eden ladies at Evil and the Angels of Eden, Part 1 and Evil and the Angels of Eden, Part 2 What is the best time to visit the Hell Club? You'll have the widest choice of ladies if you're there around 12.40 p.m., but the service will be the same whatever time you visit the club. However, it is a popular place and luck plays a role. If don't see anything that strikes your fancy, just say "No thank you, I'll be back later." Or talk to the manager on duty about when the kind of girl you want - age, appearance, special skills, ability to speak English, etc - might be available. But if a lady does catch your eye, choose her immediately or someone else will. What is the Hell Club policy on tipping? Tips are always appreciated but never requested. At the end of the session, you're free to tip the ladies whatever you choose. Is it possible to have a session with just one lady? The in-house sessions at the Hell Club are two (or more) ladies with one man. For take away sessions, it's no problem to select just one lady. After an overnight session, can a lady remain with me past 6.00 a.m? That's entirely up to the lady. Keep in mind that she has only a few hours in which to go home,and then return to the Hell Club by 1:00 p.m. She may have family or other obligations that prevent her from remaining past 6.00 a.m. Suppose I want a very special session or a service that not all ladies provide. How do I arrange that? Speak with a member of the Hell management about your wishes before choosing your ladies. That way, you'll be sure that the ladies you select are willing to provide the services you want. Security, Convenience and Satisfaction Guaranteed While anal and other more exotic services are important to some punters, that's not the biggest reason the Hell Club and its inspiration, the Eden Club in BKK, have become so popular. Top-notch sexual sessions are combined with security, convenience and a guarantee of satisfaction to keep the customers cumming and coming back. Quite simply, Hell/Eden offers a unique experience that hasn't so far been duplicated anywhere in Thailand (or the world for that matter). Bruce, the manager of BKK Eden, estimates that 60% to 70% of Eden's customers are resident ex-pats or business travelers who visit the Club on a regular basis. It's that\niche group which forms the core of Eden's clientele. The "Eden model" (or "Hell model") serves them well and they don't mind paying a bit extra for it, Everything exactly as you want it, no haggling over price, no risk of a disappointing, much less negative, experience. Should you by some chance have a problem, you simply speak to the manager and they'll straighten it out. If you're not satisfied, you don't pay. The Hell/Eden experience is particularly good for those of us who value our own time more than a few hundred baht. Here's what I set up several weeks before I visited Thailand in January: Jan. 12 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 14 (10.00 a.m.) Overnight, then 24/7 session with two ladies from Eden Bangkok Jan. 14 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 19 (1.00 p.m.) Overnight sessions each night with between one and three ladies from Hell Club Pattaya Jan. 19 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 20 (12.45 p.m.) Overnight session with four ladies from Eden Bangkok Jan. 20 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 21 (12.45 p.m.) Overnight session with two ladies from Eden Bangkok These arrangements took me about two minutes to put together (two emails to Marc, a follow-up phone call once I was in LOS). I wanted to visit Hell Club to meet Cerberus and Beelzebub (Jacko) and to say hello to Marc, but I didn't have to. I could have just phoned the Club and they would have sent the ladies to the condo where I was staying. That's what I often do in BKK - the Eden ladies meet me at my hotel room (or a restaurant, nightclub, bar, etc. - where ever is most convenient for me). No wasted time. For me, that's an important part of the Hell/Eden service and in and of itself worth a premium price. I can set things up in advance via email or telephone and be guaranteed the ladies I want. I mostly visit Thailand on a combination of business and pleasure. and have neither the time nor the inclination to search for hours in bars, clubs or on the street for two or more ladies who may or may not give me a satisfactory session. Another very significant factor for me is the fluency in English and social sophistication of the ladies of Eden. Some of them speak English a hell of a lot better than many university educated Thais, several even write excellent English. One year I took an Eden lady with me to a diplomatic reception in Bangkok hosted by the embassy of the People's Republic of China. Because she dressed appropriately, spoke such fluent English and had the social skills to manage a cocktail party setting, everyone believed she was indeed my assistant. She had had a long-term live-together relationship with a native English speaker and was thoroughly familiar with Anglo culture. The first time I took her to dinner, at the Huntsman Pub in the Landmark, she ordered steak and kidney pie! That was definitely a unique experience - a TG who took a very British dish as her first choice. If that girl had been dealt better cards in the game of life, I'm sure she could graduated magna cum laude from any university in the world. She's summa cum laude at Eden, but with a different set of skills. Other girls at Hell/Eden are similarly skilled in English. Several have even lived in an English-speaking country. I appreciate the fluency some Hell/Eden ladies have in English as much as their sexual skills. Communication is important to me. No matter how good-looking or enthusiastic in bed a girl is, it just doesn't seem right if I can't communicate with her easily. I wish I spoke Thai, but the chances of me having time to learn it are small. Therefore, a P4P provider's ability in English is crucial to me. Does everyone need an escort who can accompany them to a diplomatic reception? Obviously not. But some punters do and for them, Hell/Eden is a great option. That's why Hell/Eden flourishes while others struggle. That will be what makes Hell a success as well – offering options to a niche group that hasn't been previously served well. Eden/Hell provides the service that's wanted with a minimum of hassle at a price the customer is willing to pay. Because I have limited time for mongering during my visits to BKK, I prefer the "sure thing" of the Eden Club. Finding FLers or BGs who perform at the level of an Eden lady is rather rare, much less finding two or more who'll perform together. I don't get that much of a kick "hunting" for ladies on the street or in bars, there's too big a risk for major disappointment. Other guys feel exactly the opposite. They enjoy hunting, that may even be the most exciting part of the experience for them. Moreover, I appreciate the security Eden provides. I like the fact I don't have to hang out with a lot of drunk punters in the bar. While I never expect to have any problems regarding the service at Hell, it's reassuring to know I can take any complaints to Cerberus and Beelzebub, rather than ex-cons with nicknames like Bubba and Cueball or ex-Spetsnaz named Boris and Yuri. I've got no idea what the Thai equivalents of Bubba and Boris would be named, but I'm sure they are just as short-tempered and have the same scars on their knuckles and prison tattoos on their forearms. Evil

Definitely. I'd like to read it and I'm sure many, many others would be be interested as well. Just look at the view count of any Hell or Eden-related thread. The interest is certainly there. Evil

Yes, I'm working on a trip report. I had some especially good sessions at Eden and Hell this time round. I'll never forget the young lady from Eden, very sweet and innocent looking, who wouldn't let me go to sleep. "Not sleep yet! One more time, you on holiday," she told me. Earlier in the evening, she'd come to my defense against a farang she thought had insulted me. He hadn't, he was only joking, but she kicked him square in the balls anyway. A very effective kick. I imagined she was the veteran of many such encounters. Anyway, it was a fun evening for me (perhaps not so much fun for the guy who got kicked). I'll try to write it all up. Evil

The ladies who have been booked for all-night take-away sessions beginning at 10.00 p.m. will drop out of the line-up around 8.15 p.m. I believe "last call" at Eden is at midnight, but I doubt too many of the ladies are available at that time. Evil

The reason experienced punters buy a VIP membership at Hell or Eden is to be able to guarantee that their favorite ladies will be available at a certain time. To give you an example, here's what I arranged ahead of my trip to LOS n January: Jan. 12 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 14 (10.00 a.m.) Overnight, then 24/7 session with two ladies from Eden Bangkok Jan. 14 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 19 (1.00 p.m.) Overnight sessions each night with between one and three ladies from Hell Club Pattaya Jan. 19 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 20 (12.45 p.m.) Overnight session with four ladies from Eden Bangkok Jan. 20 (10.00 p.m.) to Jan. 21 (12.45 p.m.) Overnight session with two ladies from Eden Bangkok These arrangements took me less than five minutes to put togerher (two emails to Marc, a follow-up phone call once I was in LOS). I wanted to visit Hell Club to meet Cerberus and Beelzebub (Jacko) and to say hello to Marc, but I didn't have to. I could have just phoned the Club and they would have sent the ladies to the condo where I was staying. That's what I often do in BKK - the Eden ladies meet me at my hotel room (or a restaurant, nightclub, bar, etc. - where ever is most convenient for me). No wasted time. For me, that's an important part of the Hell/Eden service and in and of itself worth the VIP premium. I can set things up in advance via email or telephone and be guaranteed the ladies I want. Evil

What is your definition of an infomercial? The OP asked a question about the Eden Club, another individual asked a follow-up question. One can argue that it wouldn't have taken too much effort for either the OP or the follow-up questioner to have done a search before posting their questions, but it is hardly the first time that has happened. What makes this different than dozens of other "already-asked-and-answered" threads? I tend to see the bottle as half-full rather than half-empty, so I'm assuming both questioners asked their questions because they wanted answers.That's not always the case. Sometimes questions are posted to allow an opportunity for negative comments. But as I said, I tend to take the optimistic view. Anyway, your post, kdc1899, reminded me I'd been negligent in responding to mr hyde. Without your reminder, I probably wouldn't have bothered to write anything. So I have to thank you, kdc, for keeping me attuned to the spirit of cooperation and good will that is so important for Internet boards. To answer mr hyde: I've had more than 80 take-away sessions with ladies from Eden and five with ladies from Hell. In essence, I didn't notice any difference. Many of the ladies at Hell are from the Eden Club and there was no noticeable difference in the service offered by the ladies "on loan" from Eden and the ladies hired in Pattaya. Obviously you have a bigger choice at the Eden Club because there are about 45 ladies on the books there, but that is the only real difference I could see. If you want a subjective account of a overnight experience with Eden ladies, I wrote about one memorable all-nighter here: Part 1 and Part 2. Part 1 gives you a good idea about the sexual side of an Eden overnight session, while Part 2 deals with the non-sexual adventures that are frequently part of an Eden overnighter. To get an idea of the spirit of the Eden ladies, just read the last three or four paragraphs of Part 2. Hope this helps. Have a great time if you decide to wander between Eden and Hell in your pursuit of pleasure. Evil

Has anyone written about the Eden Club on this board? Evil

Ton is legendary for her oral skills, deep throat in particular. She had an enormous following in Bangkok. Supposedly some business types would plan their Asia trips around a short stop-over in BKK so they could get a session with Ton in Eden. If there is ever a Hall of Fame created for P4P providers, she would have to be one of the first inductees. Evil

You realize what a few others fail to grasp - that not every single punter wants to go out on a hunt. Probably most do, but some don't and Hell is a good option for them. That's exactly my case. I get the service I want at a price I consider fair. If anyone doesn't want to visit Hell, there are 3,000 other places in Pattaya to go to. No question about that. Hell is not for everyone but perfect for some. What I can't understand is the chatter about a rip-off. To me it is a premium service at a reasonable price for what you get. Evil

Now, now touristman. Play nicely with others or you'll end up having to play with yourself. No need to take things so personally. This is a thread on "Inside the Hell Club." Save your heated outbursts for your therapy sessions. I have a real quick answer to that question, complete with a concrete example, but I'll save it for its proper place. Stifle your paranoia, touristman, you're not my example. No, the bashers are people who have never had a session at Hell/Eden, usually never even been inside either place, yet write sweeping conclusions about the quality and value of the services offered. And it isn't a question of where I haven't been, but to where you haven't been, namely the Hell Club. I first visited LOS (and Pattaya) in 1979. You were still in elementary school then. I've been back about 75 times since that first trip. I lived 25 years outside the U.S. in a string of countries in Europe, the Middle East and Asia and LOS has always been my main vacation spot. The longest single stretch of time I spent in-country in Thailand was six months back in the 1980s, usually I stay 10 days or two weeks. For the past few years, I've made four trips per year to LOS on a combination of business and pleasure. I certainly don't consider myself an expert, but I'm far from a newbie.I'm very well acquainted with the various options in Pattaya. That's why I can state unequivocally that the standard of service you get at Hell/Eden isn't available elsewhere. I've never been to the Jade Garden, but I have been to the other oft-mentioned alternatives to Hell/Eden. As I stated earlier, it's not my style to bash a place simply because it doesn't offer the kind of session I desire. But maybe you should start a thread on the Jade Garden. Then I could reply without ever having been there, just like you did in the "Inside the Hell Club" thread. Only joking. I'd never write about a place without having seen it first, but I'll make a point of visiting the Jade Garden on my next trip to Pattaya. You presume wrong. To people who don't place a value on their time, it is by definition worthless. I was using the term in a very specific sense - comparing the costs at Hell to other, cheaper establishments. Here's a simple example of what I mean. Across the street from my apartment building is Dry Cleaning Shop A. I pass it every day on my way to and from work. It charges $12.00 to dry clean a suit. Dry Cleaning Shop B only charges $8.00 to do the same job, but it would take me 30 minutes to get to Shop B from my apartment. The total cost to me in money and time would be $8,00 plus the 60 minutes it takes to get there and back to Shop B. Since I value 60 minutes of my time much higher than $4.00, it's not worth it for me to take my suits to Shop B. If my neighbor in the next apartment says he uses Shop B because it's $4.00 cheaper, he's not putting any value on his own time. Hence, his time must be worthless to him, at least in determining the total cost of getting a suit dry cleaned. Same-same applies to P4P. I understand that very well, that's why I hate wasting time on trying to set up a session that may or may not turn out well. I'd rather spend my time with the ladies than trying to find them. I was using the concept of "worthless time" as a factor in calculating the total cost of a service. Your ill will caused you to read something into it that I'd never written. The cutting-edge concept at Hell/Eden is to give the best service in LOS, with the guarantee the customer doesn't pay if dissatisfied. But since you've never been to the Hell Club, how do you know about the age or physical appearance of the ladies? On what basis are you making that statement? Yes, it can be hardcore if you want it that way, especially the in-house experiences. But I prefer L/T take-away and that has given me some of the best GFEs I've ever had. I don't want to tax your precious time or your brain cells (the latter more than the former) too much, but just read the final few paragraphs at this LINK to get an idea of the kind of experiences I've had with the ladies of Hell/Eden I thought you'd already taken back the rip-off accusation in an exchange with Montydog, but here you are repeating it. Never mind, I can easily flip what you say: The Hell Club is exceptionally good value for experienced punters who know Pattaya well and for everyone who wants to pay for top service and doesn't want to waste time hunting for women in beer bars. I certainly don't have problems communicating with (NOT to) women in a "normal everyday environment," I just wonder where you find that environment in Pattaya and at the same time, arrange for an all-night threesome. To everyone but touristman I apologize for the length of this post. I wasn't going to post lengthy replies again on this thread, but when you see the crap like that quoted above, I must respond IMO. The difference between you and me, touristman, is that I didn't get heated. I had fun writing it, with a smile on my face and tongue in cheek. I don't imagine we'll be hearing from you again (a wise decision on your part), but every time you throw down the guantlet, I'll be there to pick it up. BTW, whether you reply or not, I'll keep posting fresh information to this thread about the Hell Club, at least every week. I wouldn't want to disappoint you and papillion. Evil