What is "face?"

[monsoonlover10 0]

I understand losing or winning "face" to mean admiration or lack of in the eyes of others. However I still find it a bit murky to define sometimes. Is the concept of face all over Asia? I am visiting friends in Hong Kong next week so I'll ask them. Anyone with some good examples or a personal story?

 

I read of one: A tourist stops a man on the streets of Pattaya and asks for directions. The man gives the tourist some assured directions and they both go on their merry ways.

 

Then the tourist discovers that the directions lead to nothing. In other words, the man giving the directions didn't want to lose face by saying he didn't know the answer. :frustrated

 

Is this right? Any others?

Edited May 24, 2005 by monsoonlover10

[lemons 0]

Yep that's an example of face.

 

On a similar vein, if a Thai simply ignores you if you ask them something, it's because - they don't want to offend you, by revealing that you're offending them, by asking a question they don't have the answer to. Simple heh!

 

The ultimate example IMHO however, is in the P4P world.

 

A bg rooting as many farangs as she can in any given week, but being mortally offended if one of those farangs dares to wander past her bar with another bg in tow. How rude, what a prick!

 

Just as well I love the place so much.

 

L

[Krowdon 0]

That part I never really understood, lemons... A jealous BG... As soon as you're not there, they are in bed with as many as they can, to make their money and have thier good time, and we're not only supposed to be understanding and supportive of this, but non-jealous because "its their job"... But, like you said, heaven forbid you get seen walking by her bar with another BG in tow... Then you become the "butterfly asshole".... Odd...

[carcareers 0]

Face is something few vacationers will run into especially in and around the p4p scene. Bg's claiming "face" are simply trying to protect their walking atm machine.

[PokerUpFront 0]

Face IS something vacationers WILL run into all the time because of the cultural differences. Please note the classic example monsoonlover10 gave about the tourist asking for directions.

 

Face is like dignity. The guy giving the directions is from Thailand and the tourist is not. The guy giving the directions HAD to give some directions, otherwise he is admitting that he is as lost as a tourist. When you have very few or no assets, you only have your dignity. Thus, protecting "face" is as important to a poor Thai as protecting your house and car and retirement fund is important to you.

 

Face in Thailand is not about how you interpret actions, it is about how your actions are being interpreted. To avoid this cultural difference you must act intelligently and be willing enough to put yourself in their shoes.

 

Here’s another example. When you bf a bg from a bar and the next night you come back to the same bar and bf a different bg, you have just stepped all over the first bg's "face". She interprets your actions as you saying, "you were unable to satisfy my needs", and this is how the whole bar will interpret your actions also so you have embarassed her in front of all her friends and co-workers. I am confident in believing that you would be unhappy if you were embarassed in front of your friends and co-workers. Meanwhile you are just trying to have a good time and have a little variety on your holiday. This is why so many people advise that you only bf one bg from any one bar. This is also similar to the “walk of shame†that lemons alluded to.

 

In one trip report a guy mentioned that when he came back to the same bar and bf'd a different bg the next night, the bg from the previous night offered to make it a three-some for no additional charge. He interpreted this action to the effect of, "wow, this girl digs me", while I think the interpretation was more like the bg saying, “don't embarass me by showing the others that I am not worthy of a second night with youâ€. In this case it was definately not about the money and protecting an ATM machine, it was about protecting her dignity (fortunately the guy did pay her which probably went a LONG way to saving her face).

 

Other "face" situations can arise while you are dining, which is something all vacationers do. First, if you are invited to eat at a Thai's home do not finish all the food on your plate or they will add more food to your plate. Saying, “no I am full is not an optionâ€. If you finished your plate you can not be full in their opinion, so they reload your plate. Meanwhile, you want to show that the food is good, plus you remember your mother's teachings that you should finish your plate, so you force feed the plate empty again. So now the Thai has to put more food on your plate because obviously you are not full. If you do this and the Thai runs out of food, you have just steamrolled his face. You are saying to him, "you invite me to your home for dinner and you can not even provide me a plentiful mealâ€. If you turn down the seconds you are saying, “your wife cooks like shit, I just forced one plate down, but I will not do it againâ€. Just accept the extra food, have another bite or two and say I am full. Now you have said, “you provided such a good meal for me that I wanted seconds, but you have provided so much food for me that I am now stuffedâ€. Face in this manner can even occur if you go with your bg to her favorite restaurant. When you finish your plate, she may interpret your actions to mean that, "this place sucks, they didn't even serve enough food to fill me upâ€. And you may have thought that when you finished your plate and your bg started putting something on your plate that she was just being nice and trying to share her food with you. What she was saying was, “you fucking pig don’t embarrass me in my favorite restaurantâ€. That’s why they think we are animals.

 

I even caught myself in a similar situation while eating food from a cart while sitting at Lucky’s Bar. Bg asks if I am hungry I say a little so she gets us some meat on a stick and some grasshoppers. Once finished she brings back some more stick meat, for which she is paying. I proceed to start chawing down and I pick up a “look†that tells me something is wrong (when Thais are standing around smiling and saying nothing, something is wrong, the smiles betray their true feelings but the eyes won’t). It is then that I notice that there is only one bite of chicken left on the stick and the stick is still in my hand. I say I am stuffed and put the stick down and you can see the weight slip off her back as order is restored. These are not easy things to notice and fortunately I had most of the general principles explained to me. The reason so many cultures (even western) consider Americans as ugly is because we are so precocious as a society although the individual American currently stepping on someone’s “face†may in fact just be an ignorant or obnoxious fool.

 

Remember, a Thai will not defend their position (until you have cornered them, then they may act like a cornered animal) since that would be considered rude. They will just smile and try their best to meet your request so that they can show what a gracious host they are.

Edited May 24, 2005 by PokerUpFront

[MM 6,562]

Interesting question and subject. I read and hear farangs talking about the concept of "face" regarding Thai's all the time, but I have never been able to find a Thai who could respond to the question of "what does it mean to lose face?" or if I describe a situation where we say a Thai loses face, such as a jilted bg for another bg in the same bar, I ask "how would you describe that in Thai?" and the answer I get is "nawy jai" ... meaning the girl feels minimized or smaller heart. Not surprising...and similar to any race in the same situation. If I give the example of a Thai person being confronted by a farang who disrespects them in front of their peers or coworkers (what we usually describe as "causing a Thai to lose face"), the answer is the person would be "jai rawn"...well, that means angry. Big surprise.

So, what I am wondering is, since we all have been talking about this face thing, what the heck is the Thai description of it, if it exists? You'd think if it was such an important concept to Thais as we think, they'd have a ready description of it and an expression for it. To date, I have not found it. Has anyone else?

[monkeyman 1,604]

Face in Thailand is not about how you interpret actions, it is about how your actions are being interpreted. To avoid this cultural difference you must act intelligently and be willing enough to put yourself in their shoes.

Very well put.

 

Respect, dignity, whatever you want to call it. They just have a different take on it.

[suitcase 0]

Maybe losing face means different things to different people based on their own personal value system. MM talked about "angry" but that could be the same as being made to feel "smaller". A man who's made to feel smaller may be angry. A woman may respond a different way. I think that it's called different things in different cultures but the bottom line is being made to feel embarassed. IMHO

 

 

Monsoonlover10/aka HarrisCanada,

Knowing your history (and real identity), I find it interesting that you would be asking this question since your past indicates that you don't really care about anyone else "losing face". Your whole con game and sex offences are based on people loosing face. What a hypocrite!

 

Maybe you could get some face back if you obey the courts and repay your victims. Oh yeah! And stop underpaying BG's.

 

Sorry Guys, I know this guy well and you should know who you're talking to. Harris is scum but the topic is great so I won't interrupt any further.

(I'm counting on the fact that the Flaming rule doesn't apply to convicted criminals and Sex offenders who've already been banned from the board 3 TIMES!)

Edited May 24, 2005 by suitcase

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Krengchai is the attitude of taking other peoples feelings into consideration, avoiding confrontation, being tolerant of other's situations etc. Like many thai words that describe a state of mind, I'm not sure there is a direct translation into English.

[MM 6,562]

Krengchai is the attitude of taking other peoples feelings into consideration, avoiding confrontation, being tolerant of other's situations etc. Like many thai words that describe a state of mind, I'm not sure there is a direct translation into English.

I checked ThaiVisa, and they have a topic on the subject of how the Thais describe "loss of face"...it sort of helps

ThaiVisa loss of face

[wolfeight 0]

I also think that the "face" issue can sometimes be used as blackmail against a Farang,eg.when refusing to go to a certain venue or saying no when she suggests you pay for food and libations for her so called "friends".

Ive always smiled and tried to diffuse any situation in Thailand,but have had one bad experience when I refused to purchase a bottle of whiskey for a bg`s so called friends.It wasnt the money but the fact that I simply was not asked.

This led to her screaming at me in the street,and her trying to scratch my eyes out.Followed by threats and abusive phone calls.

I got out of there real fast.Speaking to a couple of expats about the incident,they concluded it was probably a face thing.I believe it was a con the farang thing.

Shame really as we had a really good couple of days up till then.But I will never forget her eyes at that moment,and still count it as a lucky escape.

The Thais can hide a lot behind words and those amazing smiles.But the eyes sometimes tell a differant story!

[The Mook 105]

Krowdon: BG commoditize themselves so it's understandable. Here is an analogy:

 

1. Let's assume you own a coffee shop and have developed a cliente that are loyal to your shop. They're your "regulars."

2. Then, another coffee shop is opened by someone else on the same block where your place is located.

3. One day you see your "regulars" giving the new place a try.

4. All of a sudden you're not so happy with the "regulars". Maybe you're thinking: "What the f*ck is going on here; my coffee's no good anymore?" It's a blow to your pride since you take pride in running a great shop that gives people a good bang for the baht.

 

Same with TGs. They believe the time you spend with them is a commodity. So, when you are seen with TG #2 after you're spent some time with TG #1, it's a problem. Perhaps TG #1 is thinking: "What the f*ck, my puki's no good anymore?" She may take pride in her work, and in providing a service that gives punters a good bang for their baht. No pun intended.

Edited May 25, 2005 by themook

[lemons 0]

Face issues can arise in very unexpected ways.

 

I once bought a bottle of Thai wiskey to my favorite b/bar for the girls to share, as I know they love it. While the bottle was accepted with smiles, they all shot glances at eachother, and it was put under the bar straight away and nothing further was said. I was pretty confused. I asked my BG what was wrong and she simply smiled. I was about to get up and tell them all to go fuck 'emselves when the mamasan pulled me aside.

 

She explained that the girls loved the wiskey but couldn't drink it without coke or soda. The owner had decreed that they had to buy it at normal prices if they wanted it. They couldn't afford that, but could easily get it from the 7-11 next door. Yep so what's the problem???

 

The old face thing. They wouldn't do that as it would insult me for bringing an incomplete gift. AND they couldn't ask me to buy it, as that would cause everyone to lose face. In their eyes, they were between a rock and a hard place.

 

Solution: give my BG 80thb to buy the mixers from the shop, and all was well. Big grins all round and a great night.

 

What's that they say about Asia? To understand 95% of it, stay a month. To understand the remaining 5%, take the rest of your life!

 

L

[CheshireTom 1,377]

What's that they say about Asia? To understand 95% of it, stay a month. To understand the remaining 5%, take the rest of your life!

Lemons,

 

I've never heard that analogy but it's so very, very true.

 

Tom

[chas 16]

I had a look in Christopher Moore's book Heart Talk. Under the heading 'Hurt Feelings' and 'Hurt Feeling Heart' he mentions kra thuean jai and sa thuean jai. He then explains ' These two heart phrases apply to the classic case where another's feelings have been hurt by actions or words. Hurt feelings can also translate, in some instances (but not all) as a loss of face.'

 

So I hope that's clear now! Excellent book.

Patrick

[lemons 0]

Sounds to me like the problem was that you didn't buy the Thai whiskey and coke from the bar itself, and the mamasan was too polite to tell you, so you madE it worse by then buying the soda outside too!

No mate, the buying of a bottle of grog and taking it to the bar is not an unusual thing in LOS. (There was a thread on here about it not so long ago). Some bars charge a corkage, some dont.

 

I only do it in bars where I've already spent some $ and have a BG currently b/fined. I rarely drink more than one myself, and end up spending a fair bit on other drinks.

 

Also, the other girls who may have been a bit quiet, come to life with a couple in them and generally attract other punters off the street. I've not had an owner or mamasan ever object to this practise.

 

It really was a 'face thing'.

 

Cheers Lemons

[Flash_Basbo 0]

No mate, the buying of a bottle of grog and taking it to the bar is not an unusual thing in LOS. (There was a thread on here about it not so long ago). Some bars charge a corkage, some dont.

 

I only do it in bars where I've already spent some $ and have a BG currently b/fined. I rarely drink more than one myself, and end up spending a fair bit on other drinks.

 

Also, the other girls who may have been a bit quiet, come to life with a couple in them and generally attract other punters off the street. I've not had an owner or mamasan ever object to this practise.

Well blow me down. I'm totally confused now.

 

If I brought my own bottle to a bar in America they'd throw me out on my ass. Even one I frequent. It would be disrespectful. Even though it was ok for Lemons to do this at that bar his OWN bf'd girl wouldn't explain the soda situation to him?

 

Do you longtimers agree with PokerUpFront's food related post? So I should not finish my meal as a way of saying that I am happy and full? Totally different than the US...

 

Is there any polite way to get them to clue us in when we make a faux pas?

 

I consider myself a polite person so offending people in their own country really bothers me. I don't think I can win on this one though.

[Hub 203]

I refused to purchase a bottle of whiskey for a bg`s so called friends.It wasnt the money but the fact that I simply was not asked.

This led to her screaming at me in the street,and her trying to scratch my eyes out.Followed by threats and abusive phone calls.

I agree, this was seems like a "sia nah" scenario, but IMO probably because she realized she was acting very naughty and innapropriate in the first place by not considering you and then had no wiggle room when caught out at it. In other words, it was more her fault in the first place and she couldn't deal with it. Think of a guy yelling at his wife when he lost the mortgage in the casino for a western analogy.

 

Hub

[Hub 203]

Well blow me down. I'm totally confused now.   

 

If I brought my own bottle to a bar in America they'd throw me out on my ass. Even one I frequent. It would be disrespectful. Even though it was ok for Lemons to do this at that bar his OWN bf'd girl wouldn't explain the soda situation to him?

 

Do you longtimers agree with PokerUpFront's food related post? So I should not finish my meal as a way of saying that I am happy and full? Totally different than the US...

 

Is there any polite way to get them to clue us in when we make a faux pas?

 

I consider myself a polite person so offending people in their own country really bothers me. I don't think I can win on this one though. 

I agree, Thais are very conscious of food etiquette and eating is a bigger part of life that in the west. I would agree with most of what Poker said, although finishing or not finishing your plate changes with each situation.

 

For example, if a girl cooks for you or has ordered a dish for you and there is some left in the main dish, she probably will be very happy if you finish your plate and ask for more.

 

Some of my other observations:

 

If you buy a bunch of food for bargirls, make sure you tell them you are full (im or im lao) so they dig in. Greng jai will tell them to wait in case you are still hungry.

 

If you want to get in good graces, notice which dish the girl you are with likes the best and refill her dish with a good part from it, like a big prawn.

 

I've heard also that leaving a bit on the plate indicates you are not poor.

 

In March, I still remember one night when the best piece of butterflied giant prawns was left in the middle of the table at the end oif a meal when Pieman and I were with a few girls and were eating at an outdoor place. I know the girls wanted it and so did I but nobody would eat it.

 

The Thais definitely overcook or over order relative to amounts so they don't run out of food (which resulted in me eating leftover kow paid gai this morning in my car on the way to work that was supposed to be for lunch but smelled too good ).

 

Hub

Edited May 25, 2005 by Hub

[Niall 0]

AC's story also demonstrates another important point. The guy from the shop was being a twat and in any culture deserved a slap but in Thailand you take one Thai on you take them all on including the police. I know a few guys who have made this mistake...

[carcareers 0]

I used to own a little expat bar in San Jose, Costa Rica. It was around the corner from Blue Marlin and Key Largo, across from Presidente Park. During the daytime it was just a typical park, at night nothing but drug dealers and ladyboys. Many guys in CR will stay at the Holiday Inn across from the park and have to walkl thru the park or skirt it to get to the bar area's. The park was only about 100 yards from my front door.

 

We had a couple guys visiting CR for their 1st time, they stayed at Holiday Inn and I told them many times to never walk the park especially at night, take the damn $2.00 taxi and be safe. They didn't take the advice. One night one of the guys came busting through the door, face covered in blood. We cleaned him up, got medical attention for him etc.

 

Came to find out the next day he walked thru the park and was "teasing" the ladyboys being drunk and thinking it was fun I guess. One of the ladyboys who he apparently got too close too grabbed him by the head and pulled his face to hers, she commenced to grab a big bite of his face and lip and literally tore is lip almost entirely off. The next day he had to be flown back to the states as he needed extensive plastic surgery which couldn't be done in CR.

 

Niall hit the nail on the head, "fight one thai and you will end up fighting them all" Same goes for taxi, baht bus drivers and ladyboys. Some guys don't get it, you may think your picking a fight with a ladyboy, but it really is nothing more than a guy in a dress.

 

This particular guy got what he was asking for, a ruined trip and huge medical expenses.

 

Always best to put on a large smile and walk on............................

[monkeyman 1,604]

Here you are. I found the answer in the very next topic. The post read thus:

 

 

"Beware of those 200 baht watches they sell at BigC. Bought a Diesel copy six months ago and the wrist band breaks while walking out of the store. Ok, cheap watch, no band, no problem. Buy new band. Then the face falls off."

 

 

So now you all know what losing face is.

 

No, it's OK, no need to thank me.