up scale condo developments

[carpediem 0]

I am new to Pattaya - been just once for a month; and even to Thailand - been a couple of times.

 

I'm very seriously considering buying a condo in one of the high quality developments now, or soon to be, on the market viz. The Sails, La Royale Beach, Northpoint. The prices are in the 70/80k+ per sq metre.

 

I'd very much appreciate comments, caveats, advice, encouragement/discouragement etc from residents and old hands of Pattaya/Jomtien - on the aspect of

1. living there (what I foresee)

2. as investment (re sale or rental if 1. above doesn't work out).

 

cd

[kdc1899 1]

Look at all the unfinished condos. The finished empty condos that wont rent for the $$$ needed for speculator to pay mortgage.

 

If you are long term (at least 10 years) then the overpriced new project would be the way to go. You may run negative equity till after mort rates stop rising. Won't matter if you are long term though. Especially if your purchase and move are based on quality of life.

 

I personally see no risk of having to chase prices anytime soon; anywhere.

[carpediem 0]

kdc

 

Thanks for your response and comments.

 

Yes, my objective is long term & I am looking for a decent quality of life - and certainly a minimum of hassle while there.

 

But even from an investment point of view (theoretical sale or rental) I thought that in a situation of surfeit of condos and developments the safest bets would be at the top end. The Sails and La Royale are sold 60+% now; and La Royale has increased its prices 20% recently compared to launch prices - to my chagrin. From the attitude of the sales people I tend to agree that prices aren't running upwards for the moment, but I want to get on with it - ie get something done on my next trip next month. Anyway completion date is 1 and 2 years away.

 

The Sails is sharing its (double tower) building with a luxury Meridian hotel. I thought this would enhance rentability - at least short term holiday lets.

 

Don't know if you'd agree with any my thinking above. Am assuming you are are a (perhaps long time) resident.

 

cd

[Owen` 2]

But even from an investment point of view (theoretical sale or rental) I thought that in a situation of surfeit of condos and developments the safest bets would be at the top end. The Sails and La Royale are sold 60+% now; and La Royale has increased its prices 20% recently compared to launch prices - to my chagrin. From the attitude of the sales people I tend to agree that prices aren't running upwards for the moment, but I want to get on with it - ie get something done on my next trip next month. Anyway completion date is 1 and 2 years away.

 

I can't see an advantage of tying up money for 2 years on something that, truly, may never finish.

 

Why not buy something already finished and up for resale? You have some interest in reselling from an investment perspective so if you buy something being resold, don't you gain some education into that process?

 

I've looked into this and a LOT of BMs on the ground there say a ton of development is going on and many already finished units are sitting vacant. This is not encouraging.

[BigDUSA 71]

Let's not forget the SEVERE WATER SHORTAGE that Pattaya endures every year and it's getting worse. How will the water company supply what they don't have to all the new condos going up? My advice, rent don't buy.

[carpediem 0]

would you expect even these 'top drawer' developers of these properties to be equally likely to not finish? especially as one of them has a contract with Meridian for their hotel next door? also they require half the money to be paid in a lump sum only at handover - the rest is paid in instalments during the 2-year construction.

 

the only thing i've seen of a comparable standard is northshore in soi 5. but it's pretty much sold out (though i'm going to check again for resales there), and i think i prefer the jomtien beach location, a little away from the pattaya bustle.

 

as to the water shortage, it is precisely to avoid this and other local problems/hassles that i'm going for the very best condo development, in the hope that the management companies etc will ensure proper maintenance/supplies etc. it costs, but to me it's worth it.

 

yes, rental would give me everything - and the safety net and flexibility. i'm taking that chance in the hope that prices will harden in the long run, and also because i don't want the hassle of putting the money to a property in europe which i let at long distance - ie to generate the rental for pattaya.

 

i am deliberately playing devil's advocate on those points; but i do appreciate and need your raising the points.

 

cd

[Gary 4,118]

It is obviously different strokes for different folks. I would NEVER buy a condo unless it was already up and operating. I want to take a look at the grounds maintenance as well as the security. I also want to see what sort of people are living there and who my neighbors are.

 

If you go down beach road in Jomtien nearly as far as Soi Chaiyapruk (second police box) you will see a beautiful high rise development. It is totally empty and has been since it was built. It appears and looks like it was intended to be a top shelf complex. What happened? I have no idea but I always think about that one when I see pre-construction units for sale.

 

Regardless what the developers might tell you, unless a place is nearly sold out and people are living there, there will not be enough maintenance fees being paid and nothing will be maintained. You may be lucky to get electricity and water.

[kdc1899 1]

kdc

 

Thanks for your response and comments.

 

Yes, my objective is long term & I am looking for a decent quality of life - and certainly a minimum of hassle while there.

 

But even from an investment point of view (theoretical sale or rental) I thought that in a situation of surfeit of condos and developments the safest bets would be at the top end. The Sails and La Royale are sold 60+% now; and La Royale has increased its prices 20% recently compared to launch prices - to my chagrin. From the attitude of the sales people I tend to agree that prices aren't running upwards for the moment, but I want to get on with it - ie get something done on my next trip next month. Anyway completion date is 1 and 2 years away.

 

The Sails is sharing its (double tower) building with a luxury Meridian hotel. I thought this would enhance rentability - at least short term holiday lets.

 

Don't know if you'd agree with any my thinking above. Am assuming you are are a (perhaps long time) resident.

 

cd

The Sails is a solid choice. Even if half of that 60% are underfunded speculators who will default if things are worse that stagnant, you will be in top notch diggs and your only short term downside will be foreclosure purchases in the Sails for a couple of years (if you can swing it). These potential foreclosures will pay for your residence in the future. The Sails is in a great location. Jomtien will NEVER be Pattaya (thank god) and (it) may be something... different (more lucrative).

 

If you can get a corner unit (are there corners in a sail?) that would be the best [bet].

 

 

Edit: I doubt The Sails (association) will allow any term rentals of residential units. The Hotel next door would not agree to this project with competion on the same grounds.

Edited April 15, 2006 by kdc1899

[Gabor 296]

It is obviously different strokes for different folks. I would NEVER buy a condo unless it was already up and operating. I want to take a look at the grounds maintenance as well as the security. I also want to see what sort of people are living there and who my neighbors are.

 

If you go down beach road in Jomtien nearly as far as Soi Chaiyapruk (second police box) you will see a beautiful high rise development. It is totally empty and has been since it was built. It appears and looks like it was intended to be a top shelf complex. What happened? I have no idea but I always think about that one when I see pre-construction units for sale.

 

Regardless what the developers might tell you, unless a place is nearly sold out and people are living there, there will not be enough maintenance fees being paid and nothing will be maintained. You may be lucky to get electricity and water.

Garry, I heard a gossip about the mentioned complex, it has construction problems, money finished to fix it and they can't sell the condos. The gossip also told, that some rich guys bought it and planning there a casino. ( if ever will be possible )

[torrenova 644]

La Royale Beach has been plugged again and again and still hasn't sold out - too expensive.

 

Northshore interested me but some of the better units were "reserved" even before initial launch. Good gearing on initial downpayments but service charges high. As rental investments, the market is way oversupplied already and yields are low. Limited upside on resales as people are already finding it hard to sell units and houses because they are simply overvalued by greedy estate agents.

 

In a developed location, you know what is going to be around you but many new developments are in areas where there is going to be continual development of some sort (unknown) for years to come, just look at View Talay Residence !

[carpediem 0]

Thanks for the responses.

 

kdc

Pleased to hear your positive views on The Sails. I was tending towards that as my first choice. The units I prefer are in the centre and haved the biggest balconies.

your only short term downside will be foreclosure purchases in the Sails for a couple of years (if you can swing it). These potential foreclosures will pay for your residence in the future.

Didn't understand that bit at all - would it be too cumbersome to explain?

 

 

torrenova

Appreciate your comments.

The Sails, La Royale and Northpoint are bang on the beach - ie don't have the uncertainty of Northshore as to what might come up around it.

 

La Royale Beach has been plugged again and again and still hasn't sold out - too expensive.La Royale Beach has been plugged again and again and still hasn't sold out - too expensive.

 

La Royale has apparently put up its prices 20% since launch. On the other hand it is a fact that the spculators are now offering resales. And you are right thatit has been marketed for much longer than the Sails and hasn't sold out. Its advantage over Sails - to me - was that its scheduled completion is sooner, and it's a bit closer to Jomtien (but is the latter an advantage?)

 

 

 

I visited the Sails office and show flats - La Royale not yet. Want to see everything and make a decision during next month in Pattaya. Comments will continue to be valuable to me.

 

Thanks

 

cd

[Owen` 2]

The guy is not being strident or abusive or even argumentative. He's provoking debate and that's what he's getting and this could be a very useful thread.

 

I looked into some things there last November and got a sales pitch from a developer's staff who had scale models set up in Mike's Mall, I think. I strolled through their displays and picked up some brochures and listened to their banter.

 

In addition to the points made in this thread I recall one other thing being told to me that has my attention for these upscale developments:

 

A farang cannot own property in Thailand so a "house" is not possible without going through the process of setting up a corporation and having shareholders and whatever else is needed. A condo is supposed to be possible without all that hassle. BUT. I was told this only proves true if 60% (51%?) of the condo units in a condo complex are Thai owned. If it is fewer, then the property is farang owned and legal problems arise.

 

I have no details beyond them telling me that -- and of course they assured me that THEIR complex had already sold enough units to Thais that there was no problem. It is attention getting, though, for upscale places. Where will they find enough well to do Thais to populate the 60%?

[kdc1899 1]

" your only short term downside will be foreclosure purchases in the Sails for a couple of years (if you can swing it). These potential foreclosures will pay for your residence in the future. "

 

 

My guess (which MAY have more merit in Florida, if anywhere) is that underfunded speculators comprise much of that 60% you quoted. Folks that have been thru this for the past 7 years are not speculating now. We are cashing in on previous speculations. Newbies (who usually don't have the funds to weather a storm) are still speculating on loan. This money will be called eventually. This will result in a flood of foreclosures.

These foreclosures and bankruptcies have already begun.

I don't think you will have much downside at the Sails (except not being able to rent). I should have put the word in quotes. "downside"

If foreclosures happen at the Sails, buy as many as you can (if you can swing it and if you are allowed to rent them).

 

[som nam na 0]

I am looking for a long term permanent good quality base so the sails and northshore were interesting, but when I enquired the better units had already been sold and timing was off anyway since I am going through a divorce.

 

I will be back on the market at the end of this year. Does anyone know what is the next development coming up for sale, similar in qulaity to Northshore, sails etc?

Edited April 29, 2006 by som nam na

[Emil 0]

Where will they find enough well to do Thais to populate the 60%?

Everything that I've ever read is that the Thais need to own at least 51%. To achieve that percentage maybe thats why you see some of the condos called condotels. Those unsold individual Thai units are sold as a block and made into a hotel.

[Emil 0]

I am looking for a long term permanent good quality base so the sails and northshore were interesting, but when I enquired the better units had already been sold and timing was off anyway since I am going through a divorce.

 

I will be back on the market at the end of this year. Does anyone know what is the next development coming up for sale, similar in qulaity to Northshore, sails etc?

Earlier this year I saw a sales pitch on TV about the Northshore development. At that time the salesperson said that they only had 10 units left to sell. Then he said that they were planning to build another development north of Northshore, 2 complexes with one around 50 stories high.

[som nam na 0]

Thanks Emil I will keep a look out for that NS2

[carpediem 0]

I've decided to go ahead with a unit in the sails. I cogitated for these weeks and when I rang the unit that I had my eye one was gone - so I paid a resrvation on my 2nd choice.

 

The point that 51% must be taken by thais to enable ownership is someththing I'll raise with the estate agent.

 

Decided against La Royale, because the size of remaining units didn't suit me. Though it was much cheaper on a baht/sq m basis; and apparently resales on my preferred units were to come up imminently. However the Sails is a superior standard of aprtment, and certainly of facilities.

 

Also the sails has the advantage of a 5 star Meridien hotel in the adjacent tower - which should offer restaurants etc, and may make for easier rental possibilities for holidaymakers.

 

som nam na, the northshore developer is also going to be marketing a highrise luxury development in wongamat, called northpoint - in june. You can register with them on the net or at the northshore office in soi 5.

 

owen, if your comment about the tone of discussion referred to me - thanks. There was absolutely no reason or intention on my part for anything other than a good natured 'pro s and con s' debate.

 

cd

[irishman 0]

I agree with an earlier post about NEVER paying anything up front or before a place is complete. One fellow mentioned the huge complex down on Jomtien beach. I have seen others around. Some huge ones down on the beach near Ban Chang. And don't forget that the North Shore complex was just a shell for over 5 years and all the original investers got screwed when the current developers took over the project.

 

There are still quality units around and you don't have to pay in the 70 - 80 range either.

 

Then there is always the question about what constitutes quality construction. They all say that they do it but if you have ever watched what they are doing, you might very well be surprised!

 

Also remember the three principle things to look for in a house/condo! Location, Location, Location! People will get tired of the commute when going very far from Pattaya beach. Even the far end of Jomtien Beach is a drag when you have weekend traffic. My choice is Pratumnak Hill! But don't tell anyone because it is already getting over developed!

 

Cheers

[carpediem 0]

Irishman, I don't dispute your points in theory.

 

In my choice of the Sails, the reputable info and pedigree of the developer takes it outside the potential problems you mention.

 

I don't know if I'll regret the location/distance. It's still a couple of years away, so let's see how south Jomtien comes along in that time.

 

But thanks for the comments.

 

cd

[redwood13 56]

Two towers of 61 & 51 stories:

 

NORTHPOINT - Wong Amat Beach

 

PATTAYA PANORAMA

 

-redwood

[Shit_Happens 31]

Let's not forget the SEVERE WATER SHORTAGE that Pattaya endures every year and it's getting worse. How will the water company supply what they don't have to all the new condos going up? My advice, rent don't buy.

Big D we know there is a water shortages and I cannot count how many times you have told us but moving on.

 

Carpediem. My budget is not as large as yours but as an investment have you considered the Viewtalay projects. They have a good rep for quality and maintaining services plus they manage a good resale. My experience with a studio in VT2 was good. Made a good capital growth over 2 years and was always rented. VT5 is in a good location at the Nth end of Jomtien and is on the beach. I have 2, 48 sq metre condos on the 6th floor that I paid approx 31,000 baht a sq metre for last year and I will make them into a one bedroom 96 sq metre condo with ocean views. The building is 99% completed and we will be settling around June. The building to be built behind, Bldg D it is now selling with completion due in 2008/9.

Edited May 1, 2006 by Shit_Happens

[Gabor 296]

Thailand Property Report - May 06 -

 

Wise Power launches Jomtien villas

Wise Power Land has officially opened sales of its six low-rise villas, located in Jomtien Beach, Pattaya.

 

 

The villas are the latest addition to La Royale Beach Condominium and range in price from Bt53 million to Bt78 million, putting them at the very top end of the Pattaya real estate price scale. The villas sit in front of the condominium tower and are three-level freehold homes with large living spaces, private home theatres, vast pool areas and terraces. The company also plans to build another 32 low-rise loft villas by a 60 metre pool deck and an additional 124 units of 2-3 bedroom units and three duplex apartments. The total land area of the La Royale Becah Project is 10 rai.

 

Wise Power Land Chairman and CEO Eric Lai, who spent many months trying to locate a prime spot for the development, says the decision to locate in Jomtien was an easy one.

 

“The moment I saw this piece of land, I knew it was perfect,” said Lai. “Pattaya is one of the closest seaside towns to Bangkok. The Bangkok-Bang Pakong elevated tollway now makes traveling to the eastern destination faster than before.”

[ibber 0]

No to be compared to the Sails, Northshore or -Point, however, several boardmembers have bought into

Jomtien Beach Residence

Close to the beach on Jomtien Soi 9, and managed by The Residence Garden

[BigDUSA 71]

Big D we know there is a water shortages and I cannot count how many times you have told us but moving on.

Every time a guy asks about the pro's and con's of buying a condo in Pattaya, I'm gonna mention the on going water shortage problems especially with all the condo development going on. I assume the guys close to retirement and will be investing a substantial % of his retirement capital in a potentially worthless investment.

 

The market is way over built already with numerous empty condo's in older buildings. Don't buy a condo unless you've lived in Pattaya for at least a year.