Airbus and Boeing products running behind schedule

[Samsonite 181]

Boeing 787 Likely To Make First Flight Around Dec 22 -Source

SINGAPORE -(Dow Jones)- Boeing Co. (BA) is planning the first flight of its long-delayed 787 Dreamliner around Dec. 22, a person familiar with the situation said Thursday.

 

"It is now scheduled to take to the sky on Dec. 22, give or take a couple of days. I don't think this will change much," the person told Dow Jones Newswires.

 

Boeing is under intense pressure to get the Dreamliner aloft.

 

The plane is now more than two years behind schedule and Boeing last quarter took a US$2.5 billion charge related to development costs associated with the program.

 

The company has orders for 840 Dreamliners.

 

-By Costas Paris, Dow Jones Newswires; 65 6415 4151; costas.paris@dowjones.com

 

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-ne...-dec-22--source

[Hub 203]

Nice! Lets see that stock go up!

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Nice! Lets see that stock go up!

 

 

I wonder where they'll get twelve reindeer to pull the thing.

[Hub 203]

I wonder where they'll get twelve reindeer to pull the thing.

hits

U bastard

 

After buying on the way down and in the 30s, my break even for the stock is around 63-64. fucking merryl lynch and their 5%

 

 

When it hits 100 again the 3 hour Poseiden suite is on me (maximum 2 birds)

[CheshireTom 1,377]

hits

U bastard

 

After buying on the way down and in the 30s, my break even for the stock is around 63-64. fucking merryl lynch and their 5%

 

 

When it hits 100 again the 3 hour Poseiden suite is on me (maximum 2 birds)

 

If the thing flies as promised and if the testing goes without a hitch, I think you'll see a pice beyond what you said in a year's time. However, there are two ifs in there.

 

If not, don't worry ....... there's always the Ryder Cup next year.

[Samsonite 181]

Boeing Breaks Ground on Second 787 Assembly Line in North Charleston, SC

Boeing facility expands production capability and increases footprint in South Carolina

 

NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C., Nov. 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) today held a groundbreaking ceremony to mark the start of construction for the second final assembly site for the 787 Dreamliner program at its Boeing Charleston facility. The facility also will have the capability to support the testing and delivery of airplanes.

 

"Today's event marks the beginning of an expansion plan that will strengthen the 787 program and allow us to continue building on the footprint we have established in South Carolina with Boeing Charleston and Global Aeronautica," said Jim Albaugh, president and CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "Locating the second line in North Charleston will allow Boeing to successfully compete in the aerospace market and grow for the long-term benefit of many stakeholders."

 

Today's groundbreaking ceremony was attended by Albaugh; South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford; Sen. Lindsey Graham; Sen. Jim DeMint; Rep. Henry Brown; Rep. James Clyburn; State Sen. Hugh Leatherman; State Sen. Glenn McConnell; State Rep., Speaker of the House Bobby Harrell; Charleston County Council Chairman Teddie Pryor, Sr.; North Charleston Mayor Keith Summey and other key officials from South Carolina. Anita Zucker, chairperson and CEO of The InterTech Group, Inc., served as master of ceremonies for the event.

 

Boeing Charleston performs fabrication, assembly and systems installation for the 787 aft fuselage sections. Global Aeronautica, which is 50 percent owned by Boeing, is responsible for joining and integrating 787 fuselage sections from other structural partners.

 

"We look forward to expanding our capability in South Carolina through our existing site, while maintaining our commitment to the Puget Sound region where Boeing Commercial Airplanes remains headquartered," said Albaugh. "Puget Sound will continue to design and produce airplanes, including the 787."

 

The 787 Dreamliner will be more efficient, quieter and have lower emissions than other airplanes while offering passengers greater comfort and the convenience of direct, nonstop flights between more cities around the world. Fifty-five customers around the world have ordered 840 787s since the program was launched in April 2004, making the Dreamliner the fastest-selling new commercial jetliner in history. The 787 family of airplanes will carry 210 to 330 passengers on flights up to 8,500 nautical miles (15,750 km).

 

# # #

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=952

[eltib 54]

What a bunch of dumbasses those Boeing execs are. All just to stop unions. They have or had a perfectly capable building in Long Beach CA where they built the 717, and they start construction on a new 787 final assembly line in SC?

 

The costs for a new building will be astronomical, not to mention shipping all the tooling to SC. I guess bad old Long Beach CA wouldn't give Boeing any tax breaks. (NOT!)

 

 

Heh Mark Sanford, soon to be ex-governor of SC.

Edited November 22, 2009 by eltib

[eltib 54]

I wonder where they'll get twelve reindeer to pull the thing.

 

When they find Rudolph.

Edited November 22, 2009 by eltib

[Samsonite 181]

....They have or had a perfectly capable building in Long Beach CA where they built the 717, and they start construction on a new 787 final assembly line....

While I agree Unions are necessary, after the strike in the Fall of '08, I can't say I blame Boeing for building the second 787 line elsewhere.

The C-17 line is still running, but does the 717 (DC-9/MD-95) line still exist or was the property sold off for re-development?

Edited November 25, 2009 by Samsonite

[eltib 54]

The C-17 line is still running, but does the 717 (DC-9/MD-95) line still exist or was the property sold off for re-development?

 

 

The 717 line no longer exists, and the property has been sold. But they planned on using the 717 facility for building 737s, but the Union up north wouldn't go for it.

[BigDUSA 71]

Boeing 787's wing fix passes crucial test, sources say

 

Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner has successfully completed a redo of the wing test that the jet failed last May, and now looks set to fly before Christmas, according to two sources familiar with the test outcome.

 

Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner on Monday successfully completed the wing test the jet failed last May, and now looks set to fly before Christmas, according to two sources familiar with the test outcome.

 

Engineers are still analyzing data from the repeat test and haven't yet given the official thumbs-up, but the composite fibers in the wing did not delaminate when it was bent to the same point as in the previous test, the sources said.

 

An initial look at the data suggests the structure performed as anticipated after a complex fix Boeing has worked on since postponing the scheduled first flight in June.

 

Boeing's current target date for first flight is Dec. 22, according to people familiar with the plan. That hinges on a successful outcome of the wing test.

 

The company issued a statement confirming the completion of the test late Monday, adding that it will take 10 days to do a full analysis of the results.

 

During the test, engineers bent the wings on a ground-test airplane upward until they passed "limit load," the maximum load the wing is expected to bear in service.

 

Sometime next year, the wings will be bent further, beyond "ultimate load," which is 50 percent higher than limit load. That's the level required before the Federal Aviation Administration will certify the plane to fly passengers.

 

In the previous test in May, at a point just above limit load, the wings had delamination at the ends of each of 17 long stiffening rods, called stringers, on the upper skin of the wing boxes. The fibers ruptured and the stringers came away from the skin.

 

The damage occurred on the upper skin of the exterior wing at the point where it joins the fuselage. Corresponding damage occurred on the other side of the join on an inner structure called the "center wing box."

 

Boeing attributed the failure to a design flaw.

 

Discovery of the damage led company executives in June to cancel a maiden flight planned for the week after the Paris Air Show.

 

The last-minute cancellation — marking the fifth delay to the plane's first flight — caused consternation among industry observers, and in August Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Scott Carson stepped aside, replaced by Jim Albaugh.

 

 

Responding to the failure, Boeing engineers first designed a fix that involved cutting a U-shaped piece out of each stringer end to shift the load, then reinforcing each of the stringer/skin joins with fasteners.

 

They tested it on computer models, then methodically began installing the fix on the airplanes already built.

 

Installation of the fix on Dreamliner No. 1, the first plane to fly, was completed Nov. 11. The installations were completed on the ground-test airplane and on Dreamliner No. 2 a few days later.

 

But No. 1 couldn't fly until the bending of the wings of the ground-test airplane was successfully completed.

 

With that done, Boeing must roll out Dreamliner No. 1 again and repeat some of the systems tests done last summer.

 

Monday, that jet was moved outside to the fuel dock on Paine Field, where the wings will be filled with jet fuel for initial engine runs and system tests.

 

After that, the Dreamliner will proceed to taxi tests. Then, barring another mishap, it should be in the air by Christmas.

Edited December 1, 2009 by BigDUSA

[Samsonite 181]

...But No. 1 couldn't fly until the bending of the wings of the ground-test airplane was successfully completed....

...Monday, that jet was moved outside to the fuel dock on Paine Field, where the wings will be filled with jet fuel for initial engine runs and system tests....

Boeing has always maintained that LN1 (Line Number One) could have flown without the reinforcements, but there wouldn't be any benefit (toward certification) in doing so.

LN1 was rolled to the fueling dock this last Saturday night.

The new 747-8 was scheduled for first flight early next year, but one of the web sites is now reporting both the 787 and 747-8 are scheduled for first flight on or about 22 December, weather permitting.

 

"Dreamliner One, N787BA, was moved from the 45-04 paint hangar to the fuel dock Saturday night.

Mark your calendars, N787BA and 747-8 N747EX are both scheduled to attempt B1 flights on December 22."

From: http://kpae.blogspot.com/

Edited December 1, 2009 by Samsonite

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Mark your calendars, N787BA and 747-8 N747EX are both scheduled to attempt B1 flights on December 22."

 

Is that your final choice or would you like to phone a friend?

[Samsonite 181]

Is that your final choice or would you like to phone a friend?

See post 1301.

[Hub 203]

Looks like Northrop may drop out of tanker bidding. Maybe they have been spending too much time with the cheese-eating surrender monkeys over at EADs.

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/northrop-...0?siteid=yhoof2

 

Can only be good for BA.

[Samsonite 181]

"...While Boeing crunches the data from the latest volley of static tests to validate the side-of-body reinforcement, sources within the company are increasingly confident that the long-delayed program could fly not one, but potentially two 787s later this month.

 

A static test yesterday, internally dubbed "2C", was a key hurdle on the now restarted path to 787 first flight. Boeing will review the data between now and December 9th to formally validate the side-of-body reinforcement and provide a green-light for first flight.

 

However, Boeing is actively preparing ZA001 for its first flight, which could come as early as December 14, according to several program sources. The new date accelerates the internal schedule for first flight by about eight days, reflecting the program's rising confidence..."

 

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/

Edited December 2, 2009 by Samsonite

[Samsonite 181]

...Maybe they have been spending too much time with the cheese-eating surrender monkeys over at EADs...

[CheshireTom 1,377]

See post 1301.

 

Ask the audience?

[wacmedia 277]

The 787 Dreamliner will be quieter and have lower emissions than other airplanes

 

Hi,

If the bugger stays on the tarmac and never flies this statement will be true.

[spacebass 0]

By WILLIAM JOHN COX, LEE GAILLARD, MANUEL GARCIA Jr. and HANS VAN der ZANDEN

 

Special to the Star-Telegram

 

Fort Worth is a key player in the technological revolution sweeping the aircraft industry. The Bell Textron plant produces major assemblies for the revolutionary V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, 43 percent of whose structure is composed of advanced lightweight composite materials. It is also home to AMR Corp., parent of American Airlines, which in October 2008 ordered 42 Boeing 787 Dreamliners, whose proportion of composites is even higher: roughly 50 percent.

 

Boeing and Airbus (with its A350) are racing to produce this next generation of computer-controlled commercial aircraft constructed primarily of composite materials to reduce weight, improve fuel economy and increase passenger loads. Almost 1,500 orders worth hundreds of billions of dollars are on the books, with more to come.

 

Despite repeated delays and safety-related design problems, it appears that these airplanes will be approved by the Federal Aviation Administration and the European Aviation Safety Agency. But more than money and national pride are at stake: Human lives hang in the balance.

 

Today, in thousands of certified commercial aircraft partially incorporating layers of fibers in a resin matrix, design defects and unexpected deterioration are appearing as composite structures begin to fail — catastrophically in at least one case. On Nov. 12, 2001, American Airlines Flight 587 from New York crashed, killing 265 people and leaving its severed composite tail fin floating in Jamaica Bay.

 

Extensive disbonding was subsequently found within a FedEx A300 rudder, and in 2005 an AirTransat A310 composite rudder disintegrated in flight. Air France Flight 447, an Airbus A330-200, crashed June 1, killing 228. Its composite tail fin was found floating 30 miles from the main debris field. Did AF447 suffer the same fate as AA587?

 

In 2007, the European air safety agency ordered repetitive and enhanced inspections of rudders on older Airbus A300/310s and certain newer A330s and A340s. But it and the FAA overlooked thousands of Airbus A320s and Boeing 777s with composite tail fins and rudders.

 

Two years behind schedule, Boeing has finally rolled out the first of six certification-test 787 "Dreamliners." But the Dreamliner has been an engineering nightmare: Its wing stringers detached along the wing-fuselage join line during flex testing, and wrinkles appeared in a composite fuselage section during manufacturing. Test flights are on hold pending repairs.

 

These composites can absorb moisture, and expansion and contraction during freeze/thaw cycles trigger concealed delamination, degradation and loss of structural strength over time. Unlike with aluminum, fatigue prediction is far more difficult with composites, which are brittle and subject to sudden and catastrophic failure.

 

Then there’s lightning. Aluminum skins of contemporary jetliners provide built-in protection from the lightning strikes routinely encountered by all commercial aircraft, easily directing strikes of up to a million volts and 200,000 amperes around internal electronic components, fuel tanks and passengers.

 

Attempting to provide equivalent protection, Boeing has embedded wire mesh in the 787’s thin composite skin and engineered fine tolerances to avoid spark gaps in metal fasteners. Since this wire mesh must be connected across every joint and since thousands of fastener holes must be drilled through the composite, gaps overlooked or developed during operations can facilitate dangerous arcing that could spark in-flight fires.

 

As with home computers without surge protectors, failure of the complicated 787 lightning-strike system could also cause loss of all electronic flight controls. And in the event of crash landings, the resin used in composites may contribute to the growth and spread of fire. Composite combustion releases dangerous fumes and hazardous carbon fibrils, posing potentially fatal dangers to passengers, firefighters and people downwind from crash sites.

 

Public safety demands that the FAA and its European counterpart deny certification of 787- and A350-type aircraft until it can be soundly demonstrated that such composite jetliners are safe enough to carry passengers. Moreover, rigorous new standards must be established for scheduled composite maintenance, repair and overhaul — with mandatory replacement of critical parts that suffer damage.

 

Human lives are at stake and must take precedence over corporate profits in these decisions.

 

Hans Van der Zanden is a materials engineer specializing in durability

[Samsonite 181]

I wonder what kind of woe the press was predicting when the aircraft manufacturers went from wood and cloth to aluminum?

Edited December 4, 2009 by Samsonite

[MrMango 667]

I wonder what kind of woe the press was predicting when the aircraft manufacturers went from wood and cloth to aluminum?

I actually remember reading about that. When they switched from wood wing spars to Aluminum, they were worried that the metal spar would not be as flexible as the wooden ones were.

[BigDUSA 71]

United Airlines on Tuesday said it would buy its first new jets since 1998, splitting an order for 50 planes between Airbus and Boeing.

The deal announced Tuesday has several conservative pieces. United split its order between the Boeing 787 and the Airbus A350, and waited until the depth of a recession so it could press for better prices. No planes will be delivered until 2016, and United has extensive rights to defer the orders. Perhaps most importantly, United only has to come up with $152 million over the next five years, putting off the day it will need to line up loans for its new planes.

 

At list prices the new jets would be worth more than $10 billion, with about $4 billion for Boeing's 787-8 and around $6 billion for the Airbus planes. United President John Tague said the carrier got a discount, which is common for jet orders, though he didn't specify how much.

 

"We felt that we had a significant opportunity by timing the order with the backdrop of the current economic environment," he said.

 

The planes will replace Boeing 747 and 767s. Deliveries are expected between 2016 and 2019.

 

Both of the new aircraft models are made with composites, meant to be lighter (and thus more fuel-efficient) than the usual aluminum construction. Neither plane has ever flown. Boeing hopes its 787 will make its first flight by the end of this year, while Airbus is aiming to deliver its first A350 in 2013.

 

Both of the planes have two aisles and would usually be used on international flights. The 787-8 seats up to 250 people, while the Airbus A350 seats 314. Both can fly more than 9,000 miles — enough to go nonstop from United's hub in Chicago to Shanghai.

 

"They give us access to virtually every region in the world from all of our hubs," Tague said.

 

United could have picked the much larger A380 or 747-8. Although it might be able to fill those massive planes during boom times, United would risk having many empty seats in a recession. Tague said the company would rather reduce its risk in future tough times, rather than "capture every last dollar of opportunity that an extremely large aircraft might create for a short period of time."

 

So why split the order? Both planes are made of lightweight materials, but their sizes are different and United thinks having some of each will let it match the size of the plane to demand on individual routes. That flexibility outweighed the benefits of sticking with one plane or the other, the company said.

 

United said it has signed letters of intent for both planes. John Leahy, Airbus chief operating officer, said Airbus expects a firm order in a month or two. He said it wasn't surprising that United split the order, and noted that it was the first time United has ordered non-Boeing wide-body jets.

 

Boeing President and Chief Financial Officer James Bell told analysts on Tuesday that Boeing was pleased United bought the 787. As for splitting the order, "I guess it's better to get some than none," he said.

 

United has not yet worked out financing for the planes, although it said the manufacturers agreed to provide loans if needed. United has been squeezed for cash during the recession, as business travel — which it depends on more than other airlines — has dropped off. In October it raised about $424 million in a stock and notes offering, and it has been mortgaging other assets such as spare parts.

 

Fitch Ratings analyst Bill Warlick, who tracks United's debt, said United is caught between needing to pay down debt versus replacing a fleet of big planes that will include some nearly 30 years old by the time the new deliveries come.

 

Paying off debt is nice, "but at some point you simply have to replace those aging widebody aircraft," he said.

 

"I think it makes good sense. I think they approached this competition very methodically and at an appropriate time," he said.

 

United, the third-biggest airline in the U.S., said this summer it was seeking competing proposals from Boeing and Airbus to replace the biggest jets that make up nearly half of its fleet.

 

United made its last jet order in 1998, and hasn't taken a delivery since 2002. It has been aggressively shrinking in recent years. The new jet order won't change that, because the new planes have fewer seats than the ones they're replacing. United said the new jets will average 19% fewer seats than the planes they replace. Overall its international fleet will have about 10% fewer seats once the new planes are flying, United said.

 

United said the new planes will be about 40% cheaper to operate over their lifetime for each seat mile flown.

 

The orders come with future rights for 50 more of each aircraft.

[Samsonite 181]

The United order makes little sense, especially for an airline that has been in as much financial trouble as they have over the last several years.

The Boeing 787 is a good replacement for their B767s, which are getting on in years, but the A350 is not, in any manner, an adequate replacement for the B747. The version of the A350 they have ordered is about the same size as B777-200, which means it will carry about 100 passengers less than a B747. Most airlines are using the B777-300ER to replace their aging 747s. So far over 400 of the 777-300ERs have been sold and over 200 delivered since it first went into service in 2004.

OTOH, United is apparently planning to become a smaller airline by such a reduction in capacity. Too bad they can't find decent management that understands the business and, therefore, is capable of restoring the once good reputation of United. The management they have had for the last several years are the financial blood suckers of the same ilk that destroyed Pan Am and TWA.

Oh, well, a lot can happen in the five years between now and when the first of these new aircraft are delivered.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Samsonite

[eltib 54]

OTOH, United is apparently planning to become a smaller airline by such a reduction in capacity. Too bad they can't find decent management that understands the business and, therefore, is capable of restoring the once good reputation of United. The management they have had for the last several years are the financial blood suckers of the same ilk that destroyed Pan Am and TWA.

 

 

Them, Delta, and American.. Got a suggestion Fly Southwest. Its the only airline that hasn't tacked on a checked baggage charge either.

 

Continental will be the last one to be absorbed by those 3. Delta just got Northwest, so I suppose United will get Continental.

 

And now that Southwest flies to Milwaukee, I'll just rent a car to visit relatives in Madison, instead of paying those baggage charges.

Edited December 11, 2009 by eltib