The Myth of the Married/Sponsor Horde

[torque 704]

We have a few resident misogynists who are constantly preaching the "snakes with tits" hatred towards the girls. We hear that their preaching is justified with the noble cause of protecting the horde of stupid, gullible mongers from falling into the hands of the snakes - getting married to them and being taken for all they're worth, or sponsoring them and being milked dry. But I think it's time we actually called them on this. It cannot possibly be true that there is any sizeable crowd of sponsors, let alone those who marry, out of the millions who travel to Pattaya.

 

According to the Tourism Authority of Thailand, 2011 should see foreign tourist numbers approaching 16 million for 2011. From what I can assemble at various sources it looks like Pattaya has something very roughly on the order of a million. Over 750,000 anyway. I have seen varying estimates, but let's say 35,000 bargirls in Pattaya.

 

If less than one half of one percent of these Pattaya tourists married bargirls, that would leave zero unmarried bargirls in Pattaya in less than one year. Now of course, we need to separate the mongers from the golf or family tourist, but I think just the most casual glance at these real statistics proves that this misogynistic crap, based on being the savior of the married/sponsor horde is not just complete horse-shit: it is delusional to the point of sickness. You have to believe in fantasy beyond all reason to think of yourself as the savior of any significant population with this incessant drumbeat of hatred for the girls.

 

Just throwing out some numbers for discussion, let's say one percent of half the tourists to Pattaya become sponsors. That is enough to sponsor every bargirl in Pattaya. Or alternatively to have half of them with two sponsors. A third of them with three. If one percent of all the tourists became sponsors then every bargirl would have two, or half of them four, or a third of them six sponsors each.

 

It is beyond dispute then, even giving an order of magnitude error factor in these numbers that only the tiniest, insignificant fraction of tourists ever become sponsors - let alone husbands - of bargirls. It is so insignificant as to be almost nonexistent relative to the staggering numbers of those who do not. It would be far more accurate to say that over 99% of tourists need no advice whatsoever about being a sponsor or getting duped into marriage than to say that there is some horde of people needing rescue from it.

 

When we then factor into account that some significant fraction of the people who marry actually are indeed happily married - the majority of those that I have seen who are married and posting on this forum are - what does that leave us in terms of a pool of dupes? It is closer to zero than it is to any number implied by the misogynists. I do not dispute that dupes exist - but so does leprosy, and it looks like the rate of duped mongers is more like the leprosy rate than it is some substantial problem (leprosy rate is 21 per million in Thailand). Sure, we are going to see stories of mongers that got duped. All you need is one and the misogynists are going to recycle that for the rest of all time as their "evidence". You can die drinking too much water too - that's actually happened, but it takes a warped person to use that as evidence that drinking water is harmful.

 

To the misogynists: you are delusional. You're sick. Look at the great crowds of people in Pattaya every night you are out there. Amongst that crowd you see, how many will be duped into marrying a bargirl or sponsoring? It's more like none of them instead of the fantasy you need to justify your hatred. How many are going to go home and bang their girl in the sack, leaving it at that? Basically all of them.

 

The upshot of this data is unassailable: what goes on in Pattaya is that guys are banging bargirls, having fun, and leaving it at that. It is an extremely rare thing, relative to the gigantic numbers involved, that anyone is getting duped into a scam marriage or even sponsoring. It happens, but it is not even remotely near the problem misogynists pretend it to be.

[kaiser71 30]

I like your style of ballparking an estimate to make your case. But 1% of 750,000 is 7,500 - not that that reverses your argument.

[Shit_Happens 31]

My god, I find myself agreeing with Torque. But you do need to factor in one more group, which I will admit I fall into.If you are of a certain personallity over years you start to become friends with some of the girls and you will receive occassional requests to help. Now I do mean occassional and if they are not they are no longer classed as a friend.One friend of mine always struggles around Feb because she has many bills due then including her car insurance and she sometimes asks for help.Otherwise I just get the occassional hello how are you going message. On this basis I have no objection to sending money if I have it at the time.

[biggles 509]

"The upshot of this data is unassailable: " What data, you pulled numbers out of the air and then claim its unassailable?

 

"It cannot possibly be true that there is any sizeable crowd of sponsors, let alone those who marry, out of the millions who travel to Pattaya. " According YOUR OWN intro paragraph, this is not what the mysoginists are claiming. they are not saying large numbers of visitors turn out to be sponsors,they are only claiming that these situations exist and warn people about them

 

You seem to be using your own made up data to prove a point that you never alleged was true in the first place? It is irrelavant how many there are, it is relevant to warn people about the scams.

[mister_handy 124]

I have seen varying estimates, but let's say 35,000 bargirls in Pattaya.

 

What's the turnover rate? From what I can see, pretty high - a fair number of girls are into and out of the business in a couple (2-3) years and a lot of others have a working like under 5-6 years.

 

Now of course, we need to separate the mongers from the golf or family tourist,

 

...or the hordes of package tourists, Russians, etc; I wouldn't be surprised if those were well more than half of the total numbers of visitors, especially since mongers tend to stay longer.

 

Just throwing out some numbers for discussion, let's say one percent of half the tourists to Pattaya become sponsors. That is enough to sponsor every bargirl in Pattaya.

 

Math fails: 1% of 750,000 as Kaiser71 has already said, is 7500. Half of that is 3750. That's only enough for (about) one bargirl in ten, which, IF my rough sense of the turnover is right, could be pretty easily covered by new girls "fresh off the farm" (or moving up from less falang-centric scenes, etc.)

 

When we then factor into account that some significant fraction of the people who marry actually are indeed happily married - the majority of those that I have seen who are married and posting on this forum are - what does that leave us in terms of a pool of dupes?

 

Would they admit it here if they weren't?

 

The upshot of this data is unassailable [...] It is an extremely rare thing, relative to the gigantic numbers involved, that anyone is getting duped into a scam marriage or even sponsoring. It happens, but it is not even remotely near the problem misogynists pretend it to be.

 

The issue you ignore is that this is not a contagion like leprosy - it takes two for a sponsorship to exist, or to have a marriage happen; the guys who are involved do it voluntarily, and there has to be a girl who either suggested it or accepted the guy's idea. A much more interesting question than what percentage of guys ARE sponsors or get married is what percentage of the girls have tried to ask a guy to sponsor them, or dropped hints about leaving the bar scene, etc etc.

 

FWIW, it's never happened to me, although being the short timer here, it's less likely. I've definitely had girls get clingy when I've taken them more than once, though, and it's possible that some guys might misread that, or encourage it rather than take it as a sign to move on to a new girl.

[Bullfrog 2,224]

You also forgot to factor OUT the successful marriages......

[mister_handy 124]

*

You also forgot to factor OUT the successful marriages......

 

Wasn't that what he did with "When we then factor into account that some significant fraction of the people who marry actually are indeed happily married - the majority of those that I have seen who are married and posting on this forum are" -- ?

 

--

 

As an aside, just thinking the girl/guy ratio, if we assume half the tourists to Pattaya are there for the girls, that's more than ten guys for every girl. If we figure an average guy is there a week, and has maybe 5 girls during that time, that would make a each girl go with an average of about 50 different guys over the course of a year, or about one new guy a week.

[Bullfrog 2,224]

*

 

Wasn't that what he did with "When we then factor into account that some significant fraction of the people who marry actually are indeed happily married - the majority of those that I have seen who are married and posting on this forum are" -- ?

 

--

 

As an aside, just thinking the girl/guy ratio, if we assume half the tourists to Pattaya are there for the girls, that's more than ten guys for every girl. If we figure an average guy is there a week, and has maybe 5 girls during that time, that would make a each girl go with an average of about 50 different guys over the course of a year, or about one new guy a week.

 

 

Whoooops...beer goggles on!!

[VicVegas 70]

Since you seem obsessed with discrediting the cynics who warn against trusting bargirls, you should first quote them directly. For example:

 

It is closer to zero than it is to any number implied by the misogynists

.

 

What number is implied by the misogynists?

 

I see no harm in warning newbies that some bargirls will play on their emotions to get money from them. I also see no harm pointing out the many successful relationships between punters and bargirls.

 

What I don't get is why you feel so threatened by the attitude of the "mysogynists".

 

 

[Bushcraft 2,579]

There is nothing mysogynistic about extreme scepticism when it comes to BGs or indeed "good girls" - it's just common sense to be wary of their motives and understand the basic circumstances. They are simply people seeking to better their financial position by trading on their assets.

Whatever the relative numbers of BGs and punters/tourists/coach parties etc. might actually be on paper (and we can only guess), it never ceases to amaze me as a Patts resident how many girls have not just one but two or more sponsors sending money.

My girlfriend is something of a mother-figure to a large number of BGs/masseuses and also "good" girls, they confide in her and I get to hear things that still make me boggle. If you do the rounds of the bars as a resident throughout the year, you also gain the girls' confidence, become something of a friend and hear about their problems with Thai boyfriends, sponsors etc., mainly because they want an honest farang point of view on their situation. Sometimes because they really like some chap and want him to take them away from the bar, but mostly to work out their best tactics.

Of course it's only a very small proportion of total girl numbers, but directly or indirectly I'm aware of the situation of at least one hundred BGs etc., often not very attractive or young, and almost without exception there is a Thai husband or at least "boyfriend" (leech) in the background, and in an amazing number of cases one or more sponsors who think they are in the foreground, sometimes providing very serious amounts of money to support a girl or her supposed "business plan", "training course" etc.

If this small statistical sample is typical across the board, you just have to laugh at the amazing gullibility of so many farang. I always say there are no stupid girls in Pattaya, only stupid farang. Good luck to the former if they can pull it off.

I sometimes ask BGs I have got to know whether they have any feelings of "love" or affection for their sponsors. The usual response is a snort of derision and a look that says: You know better than that!

As always there are exceptions, some girls really are "different", but they're rare in my experience.

[Hub 203]

Would they admit it here if they weren't?

 

Many BMs here have "admitted" it.

 

I myself was happily married for several years before separating from my wife. Our separation had nothing to do with the sponsorship/financial scams often quoted, it just didn't work out. I never "sponsored" her, we had a prenup, she worked the entire time, and we remain on good terms (just was texting with her about our son). I am glad that I decided to get married for many reasons.

[mister_handy 124]

When we then factor into account that some significant fraction of the people who marry actually are indeed happily married - the majority of those that I have seen who are married and posting on this forum are - what does that leave us in terms of a pool of dupes?

Would they admit it here if they weren't?

Many BMs here have "admitted" it.

 

That they were UN-happily married? Torque was claiming that most folks who are married (to TG, at least) on the forum are happily married. My contention is that such a group is self-selecting; they're much less likely to be talking about being married if they are NOT happily married. I'm sure someone here on the board has talked about how unhappy his marriage is, but my guess is that when most go South guys are more likely to either focus on the positive (eg not mention the marriage, just the beers, bars, etc, or do their best to forget about LOS entirely and not post at all.

 

I myself was happily married for several years before separating from my wife. Our separation had nothing to do with the sponsorship/financial scams often quoted, it just didn't work out. I never "sponsored" her, we had a prenup, she worked the entire time, and we remain on good terms (just was texting with her about our son). I am glad that I decided to get married for many reasons.

Good. Does not however, prove the point one way or the other.

[lovedog100 1,372]

There is nothing mysogynistic about extreme scepticism when it comes to BGs or indeed "good girls" - it's just common sense to be wary of their motives and understand the basic circumstances. They are simply people seeking to better their financial position by trading on their assets.

Whatever the relative numbers of BGs and punters/tourists/coach parties etc. might actually be on paper (and we can only guess), it never ceases to amaze me as a Patts resident how many girls have not just one but two or more sponsors sending money.

My girlfriend is something of a mother-figure to a large number of BGs/masseuses and also "good" girls, they confide in her and I get to hear things that still make me boggle. If you do the rounds of the bars as a resident throughout the year, you also gain the girls' confidence, become something of a friend and hear about their problems with Thai boyfriends, sponsors etc., mainly because they want an honest farang point of view on their situation. Sometimes because they really like some chap and want him to take them away from the bar, but mostly to work out their best tactics.

Of course it's only a very small proportion of total girl numbers, but directly or indirectly I'm aware of the situation of at least one hundred BGs etc., often not very attractive or young, and almost without exception there is a Thai husband or at least "boyfriend" (leech) in the background, and in an amazing number of cases one or more sponsors who think they are in the foreground, sometimes providing very serious amounts of money to support a girl or her supposed "business plan", "training course" etc.

If this small statistical sample is typical across the board, you just have to laugh at the amazing gullibility of so many farang. I always say there are no stupid girls in Pattaya, only stupid farang. Good luck to the former if they can pull it off.

I sometimes ask BGs I have got to know whether they have any feelings of "love" or affection for their sponsors. The usual response is a snort of derision and a look that says: You know better than that!

As always there are exceptions, some girls really are "different", but they're rare in my experience.

Torque, you do know that about 1% of pattaya tourist read the forums don't you? That should give some new meaning to your statement "It would be far more accurate to say that over 99% of tourists need no advice whatsoever about being a sponsor or getting duped into marriage than to say that there is some horde of people needing rescue from it."

 

I have a feeling that your post is aimed at me and my post in the newbie section. I live in Pattaya, as does Bushcraft. Neither of us are stupid. We both agree on this subject. Both of us know many of this forums members. I know many of the FLB chat members. Most don't announce it, but I have learned to spot a sponsor. When I ask, they will usually admit it, and then ask me not to say anything to anybody. Quite frankly I'm uncomfortable with it. Often I know the lady has another sponsor, and just as often a Thai husband or boyfriend. I am between a rock and a hard place when I get this information. I really want to tell the man that he is being taken. However, he is really just an acquaintance that I see several times a year. I usually know the lady better, and am much better friends with her. If I were to tell this person that is not really a friend, I could end up getting a really bad reputation with the bar girls in Pattaya. Pattaya is a much smaller town than you think. I could end up with a group of moto taxi drivers giving me a very violent visit. So, I keep my mouth shut. It's hard, but I say nothing.

 

Most that read this forum regularly know that I have a live in GF. She was a bar girl, and privy to much more information than I am. Yet she makes sure I know about ladies that are getting more money from sponsors with out having to do anything, than I give her for taking care of me, my house, my motorcycles, and my dog. She pretty much tells me about most of them, no matter how much they are getting. I don't know where you live or what your experience is, but it seems very limited to me, or you are just really gullible.

 

MM isn't shy about calling a liar a liar on this board. So if I get this next part wrong, we can fully expect a correction. Not long ago I was in his bar and and talking to him when an ex-bar girl came in showing off her new sponsor. Now this is a girl NOT working bar. She very proudly told us that he was sponsor number five. This girl I know for a fact has had in the past, members of this very forum as a sponsor. You can make up all the numbers that you want. We are talking one girl here. I couldn't even guess as to the number of sponsors this one girl has had over the years. She is fairly smart, and obviously knows how to work men much better than they work her.

 

I can only guess that you live in some fairyland world full of unicorns, elves and such. Your Pattaya experience is zero, or your just an idiot. Since you can write, I'll assume it's lack of experience and being just a bit gullible. Between Bushcraft and myself we know literally hundreds of this forums members, and many more bar girls. While there may be some political differences, here, we are known not to be liars, and bull shiters. We would never make up crap on a subject as important as this. You will never have the experience or credibility that either of us have on this subject. Much less our combined experience. I have no idea what the purpose of your post is, but I think you would much better sticking to a subject that you actually have knowledge and experience in. This sure isn't it.

 

I'll give you a free pass on your math. Last month I made a simple post and screwed up the numbers considerably. It happens.

[mister_handy 124]

Torque, you do know that about 1% of pattaya tourist read the forums don't you?

 

If you believe the members counts at Pattaya-Addicts, that number if higher than 1%. Of course, half of those could be bargirls trolling to see if someone has posted their pictures or lookiloos from the West who've never been and will never go to Pattaya... but any forum will typically have many times more readers/lurkers than posters

[Idefix 2,275]

Hi,

Where does this (ridiculous) "750,000 tourists in Pattaya" number come from ?

 

According to TAT there were nearly 16 millions of foreign tourists in Thailand in 2010.

Between 1/4 and 1/3 of them visit Pattaya : nearly 5 millions of foreign tourists yearly

 

The "5 millions foreign tourists" is one aim of Pattaya City Hall for 2011:

Pattaya objective for 2011 is more than 7 millions tourists (72% foreign (5M), 28% Thai (2M))

 

 

To come back to the discussion, your "1% of foreign tourists" is then 50.000 !

Looks like some previous comments have to be revised...

[losgrad 264]

We have a few resident misogynists who are constantly preaching the "snakes with tits" hatred towards the girls. We hear that their preaching is justified with the noble cause of protecting the horde of stupid, gullible mongers from falling into the hands of the snakes - getting married to them and being taken for all they're worth, or sponsoring them and being milked dry. But I think it's time we actually called them on this. It cannot possibly be true that there is any sizeable crowd of sponsors, let alone those who marry, out of the millions who travel to Pattaya.

 

 

Torque,

 

I agree with your sentiments in your first paragraph, but as others have analyzed your conclusions to the probabilities, etc... are disputable, but a good first attempt.

 

Mongers visiting Pattaya should be informed (although many are told, read books and forums; yet still succumb), especially those that have minimal experience outside of one hour AMPs in the States or even longer-term 'relationships' with professional providers as the ladies here (and in the Philippines) are "VERY GOOD" at what they do and at convincing you that they are different and you are more than just a customer. I would reinforce the positive that these girls are just "REALLY GOOD" at what they do and knowing what we want.

 

I would not describe most of them as malicious in convincing adult males to 'voluntarily' contribute to them through their sad stories of poverty or circumstance as I am sure these mature men also feel some satisfaction (real or imagined) in believing they have assisted a single-working mother trying to make her way in a developing country who is obligated to make a better life for her child/children and support her family in rising above the dirt-floor family home (or some who are only supporting their habits - drugs, gambling, shopping or Thai boyfriends).

 

In my apt building, wealthy Thai men from Bangkok have 'mia nois' residing and being supported. During the afternoon in any Bangkok shopping mall, you can also see many University-aged girls shopping with their "Pa" (papa) supporter. So, it's not just us farangs participating in a quid pro quo relationship.

 

Well, I appreciate the sentiments in your post and hope it will eventually gather more attention than your numerical projections.

 

Take care.

Edited June 1, 2011 by losgrad

[butterflyblonde 30]

[ZARIS 20]

Hi,

Where does this (ridiculous) "750,000 tourists in Pattaya" number come from ?

 

According to TAT there were nearly 16 millions of foreign tourists in Thailand in 2010.

Between 1/4 and 1/3 of them visit Pattaya : nearly 5 millions of foreign tourists yearly

 

The "5 millions foreign tourists" is one aim of Pattaya City Hall for 2011:

Pattaya objective for 2011 is more than 7 millions tourists (72% foreign (5M), 28% Thai (2M))

 

 

To come back to the discussion, your "1% of foreign tourists" is then 50.000 !

Looks like some previous comments have to be revised...

 

If 1% of the 5 mill visitors became a sponsor thats 50,000 "sponsorships" available each year, assuming no repeat offenders.

 

If there are 35000 girls in patts thats, on average say 1.5 sponsors per girl.

 

You could argue that of the 35,000 girls at least half would last less than a year so there is 17,500 ish " core " girls with floaters making up the total numbers.

 

Hence the 17,500 core plus a few casuals , say 2500 makes 20,000 girls sharing 50,000 sponsorships.About 2.5 for each and every girl.

 

In reality At least half those core numbers would be unable to attract even one sponsor.Leaving the remaining 10,000 with 5 sponsors each.

 

If a girl had a sponsor for 2 years it is thoretically possible she could have 10 sponsors are two years.

 

Hence a girl with 5 years under her belt could have 25 sponsors.

 

God I love statistics!

[BigDUSA 71]

Torque,

 

I agree with your sentiments in your first paragraph, but as others have analyzed your conclusions to the probabilities, etc... are disputable, but a good first attempt.

 

Mongers visiting Pattaya should be informed (although many are told, read books and forums; yet still succumb), especially those that have minimal experience outside of one hour AMPs in the States or even longer-term 'relationships' with professional providers as the ladies here (and in the Philippines) are "VERY GOOD" at what they do and at convincing you that they are different and you are more than just a customer. I would reinforce the positive that these girls are just "REALLY GOOD" at what they do and knowing what we want.

 

I would not describe most of them as malicious in convincing adult males to 'voluntarily' contribute to them through their sad stories of poverty or circumstance as I am sure these mature men also feel some satisfaction (real or imagined) in believing they have assisted a single-working mother trying to make her way in a developing country who is obligated to make a better life for her child/children and support her family in rising above the dirt-floor family home (or some who are only supporting their habits - drugs, gambling, shopping or Thai boyfriends).

 

In my apt building, wealthy Thai men from Bangkok have 'mia nois' residing and being supported. During the afternoon in any Bangkok shopping mall, you can also see many University-aged girls shopping with their "Pa" (papa) supporter. So, it's not just us farangs participating in a quid pro quo relationship.

 

Well, I appreciate the sentiments in your post and hope it will eventually gather more attention than your numerical projections.

 

Take care.

 

Personally when someone runs a financial con on me. I consider it malicious.

[losgrad 264]

Personally when someone runs a financial con on me. I consider it malicious.

 

I'd agree with that.

 

I assume most people don't tell the truth about how they use their earnings - bargirls, USA strippers, bankers, CEO's, politicians, plumbers, co-workers, mongers, etc... When my USA stripper 'friends' needed rent money, car payments, etc.., I wasn't going to just give it to them (after they had just paid hundreds for another new outfit and 9 inch heel shoes or their boyfriend had just blown his money). I'd negotiate what I'd pay for so many days/nights with them. If they changed the amount or didn't provide the services, then it's a different story.

 

For the most part, if a 'working girl' asked me for money for xxxx reason, I may or may not give her something (just as I don't trust money put into those donation boxes going to the causes indicated or an obscene % going to admin costs), but if I do, it will be with little regard to the reasons she is telling me. It'll be a donation or tip.

 

My other assumption (or possibly a hypothesis) is that 100% of the bargirls (less the newbies) have at least one sponsor. So, if I were to give a bargirl money w/o receiving services, then it'd be a donation.

 

Yeah, it's 'rose colored' glasses for some and assumptions of b.s. for others. It gets complicated when we mix p4p with 'relationships.'

Edited June 1, 2011 by losgrad

[louie 1]

some very interesting points

no comment but great reading it taking note

[cannonball83204 78]

 

 

God I love statistics!

 

 

 

Statistics are only as accurate as the person putting them together wants them to be viewed. Statistics can be skewed to show any point of view the author wants the rest of the world to see. If you don't believe that, take a college level statistics course and find out for yourself.

 

CB

 

 

 

[butterflyblonde 30]

''LOL''

 

http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/topic/55270-anyone-using-western-union-lately/

[mister_handy 124]

Mongers visiting Pattaya should be informed (although many are told, read books and forums; yet still succumb), especially those that have minimal experience outside of one hour AMPs in the States or even longer-term 'relationships' with professional providers as the ladies here (and in the Philippines) are "VERY GOOD" at what they do and at convincing you that they are different and you are more than just a customer. I would reinforce the positive that these girls are just "REALLY GOOD" at what they do and knowing what we want.

 

Must be something wrong with me, as I've very rarely had girls try, and the couple that have tried have been laughably bad at it. Then again, maybe they can read me and don't bother to turn on the sob story: the ones I've had the best times with have been the ones who've been up-front about being professional, had some pride in their work, and knew what they were doing in the bedroom.

[Pattaya Bill 34]

I'd agree with that.

 

I assume most people don't tell the truth about how they use their earnings - bargirls, USA strippers, bankers, CEO's, politicians, plumbers, co-workers, mongers, etc... When my USA stripper 'friends' needed rent money, car payments, etc.., I wasn't going to just give it to them (after they had just paid hundreds for another new outfit and 9 inch heel shoes or their boyfriend had just blown his money). I'd negotiate what I'd pay for so many days/nights with them. If they changed the amount or didn't provide the services, then it's a different story.

 

For the most part, if a 'working girl' asked me for money for xxxx reason, I may or may not give her something (just as I don't trust money put into those donation boxes going to the causes indicated or an obscene % going to admin costs), but if I do, it will be with little regard to the reasons she is telling me. It'll be a donation or tip.

 

My other assumption (or possibly a hypothesis) is that 100% of the bargirls (less the newbies) have at least one sponsor. So, if I were to give a bargirl money w/o receiving services, then it'd be a donation.

 

Yeah, it's 'rose colored' glasses for some and assumptions of b.s. for others. It gets complicated when we mix p4p with 'relationships.'

I know that some bargirls receive financial assistance, but 100% seems pretty high to me. I'm not saying it's incorrect, but am interested in what other BMs think.