atlas2

The day I started this, the restaurant I use to post in over breakfast had, along with the rest of Jomtien, the power switched off for the day. So to finish this? .......we're left with the 'Word' The 'Word' of most religions I know anything about seem to have lots of similarities. The 'Word' usually says something about the Faith's Rules. How we should treat each other. How God wants us to behave. What the pious and godly get for their obedience and adherence.......... A heaven.... a better re-incarnation until they avoid re-birth etc. What happens to the un-godly,the evil.......or the believers of another faith...........The bad boys will go to Hell......Which many 'T' shirts proclaim is Pattaya in any case! There are often some some small, but important details of diet or dress that distinguish followers of this God from another. But also there are words of comfort. Words that countless over thousands of years have clung to in the chaos around them.......And I suspect that even the most godless of us have whispered them when that's all that's left that we 'can' do. Now while its pretty easy to accept the likelihood of corrupt clergy and lip-service congregations in every faith, EVEN one's own.........Questioning the 'Word' is a different matter. Here one must be careful of treading on belief. And doing so by applying the double standards of a belief about a belief. So let me let me contextulise the spirit in which I want to frame these comments. There is a well know paradox about Belief. "To believe something is to believe that it is true; therefore a reasonable person believes each of his beliefs to be true; yet experience has taught him to expect that some of his beliefs, he knows not which, will turn out to be false." Therefore a reasonable man believes that each of his beliefs are true and some of them are false. I'm not saying I don't believe in a God but I don't believe in the purity of the 'Word' of any religion. Or hold it above criticism I don't believe God's words were scrawled on tablets of stone in perfect Hebrew by lightning.......or sent in dreams to the pens of Prophets. I don't 'know' but I see man's imperfect input in this. And we know that corrupt man has always managed to take God's word and find the devil in in the detail. I give all religions credit where it's due but I don't absolve any or any part of 'any' for their tolerance of abuses carried out in their name against a rival Faith when it suits. Nor do I turn a blind eye to violent repression of their own flocks and pretend it didn't or doesn't happen. My comments have been aimed mainly at the Mutaween. The Mutaween in Saudi Arabia and the equivalent in Iran and up until the US invasion the Taliban in Afghanistan are the only current or recent religious police. (Add a Christian or other police to the list to the list by all means and I'll condemn them as well..) Their abuses 'have' been tolerated by their religion, suiting the conservative clerics and the ruling family alike..........My opinion. A Saudi married couple I met a few years back told me about the Mutaween and the fire discussed above.....They began that part of the conversation by describing how they had been celebrating her birthday in a restaurant. They hadn't held hands or kissed but they had been attentive to each other and been absorbed in conversation. When they left the restaurant someone had phoned the Mutaween and reported that they didn't look like a married couple. The Mutaween were waiting.They were arrested and questioned for 3 hours separately. They knew they were innocent but they didn't know how far their captors would go and admitted to being angry but also very scared....The fear of the 'Witch-finder' Now Gawd Elpus' comments earlier in the thread were about the Burqa'd ladies rights to wear the Burqa in Walking St and that's true. But it's the ladies right not to wear the burqa if they don't want that in some cases is missing. The opening poster of this thread had a reaction...maybe an over-reaction to seeing Burqa'd ladies in a place like Walking St. But the Burqa causes a re-action. It's a statement of Religion and a symbol of many things including subordination. I'll only speak for myself and you can judge your own responses. Where I see a Burqa in the Rolex store I think, "well they've got the money" When however, I'm on a plane or at an airport I cannot control the thought stirring up into my consciousness of potential danger. It's like members of my generation hearing the William Tell Overture and not thinking of the Lone Ranger...impossible. I'm sure there are as many or more good Muslims as there are Christians,Jews, Buddhists etc............ I just thank God for Darwin. Lesson for the day was read by Rev Atlas2

To Tom and to Joe. Yes, it is. The eyewitness accounts, and press coverage at the time conflict in many ways with the official report. On balance I have to accept that the details of how the majority of the girls died was due to a mass panic instilled by the smoke leading them to be crushed and that I was wrong to say or to suggest that they died from burning. I apologise. That some without headscarfs were denied exit, or were thrown back into a burning building, and that the help on hand were denied entrance on religious grounds I still firmly beleive to be true. I believe this, even though the official reports states that the Mutaween just, 'stood by' to protect the girls. I don't believe that! I'm not clinging to this belief out of stubbornness. The many eyewitness accounts ring true. The outrage and courage of the Arab and English language Saudi press knowing the stir it would cause both nationally and internationally...ring true. Subsequent advice to eyewitnesses and a wink to the government sponsored press that the Mutaween would not be hung out to dry on this occasion and here's the official report...'Report it' Is not beyond belief in Saudi. In terms of the behaviour of the Mutaween we have the eyewitness reports..And we have the official report. On the one hand the Mutaween stood by and did nothing. True or false? On the other hand the Mutaween prevented help from going into the building and denied exit to the girls not correctly dressed. True or false? I wouldn't want my life to depend upon a judgement between the 2 possibilities.....Give me a 50/50 choice and there's a 90% chance I'd make the wrong one! But here, if my life did depend upon it, I'd only need a Pattaya millisecond to decide on the second option being true and the first a lie. Out of interest , and being completely honest.....If your life depended on being right..........Which would you both choose? I enclose another link to help you decide. My link

Thank you.....But I'm trying to be even-handed in this. (Not easy).....The page on Wiki has many links to external sources and accounts. The first link I offered I believed was a fair round up. Then the Wiki link .....with more than the one link that Tom explored. Though even that one read through offers.."Al-Nadwah quoted one survivor...The Civil Defence and the CPVP.(Mutaween) kept arguing over jurisdiction. Commision men stopped passersby entering with buckets." This link to a Newsweek article gets over the courage of some of the Saudi press and others and probably (my opinion) gives a fair account of events. I'll get back to Tom and Joe personally but I thought you and others might appreciate this direct link......You can make your own mind up about the truth. Note that in the linked article it states that when the regular police arrived, "they subdued the Muttawa leader, confisgated his ID and dragged him away." My link The link to the newsweek site won't work but this is the article in full.

Here's the link to one of the pages on wiki. There are other external links from that page. From that page you can navigate to further information. My link You decide for yourself.

Maybe a leap of kindergarten standard.

Not exactly a leap of olympic standards.

Firstly don't presume for yourself the right to pass judgement. Being 'right' or 'wrong' in your eyes doesn't make me either. The measure of your opinion is the same in value as any other board member. Just as the New-York millisecond you persist with is equal to a millisecond in Newcastle. Sharing the same repugnance for the death of these girls our differing 'opinion' seems to hinge on how we view 'religion' and by that understanding where we place the blame. In your case it's a legal matter pure and simple and the Mutaween acted from either 'A'... a motivation that had nothing to do with the religion of Islam...or from 'B'....a twisted corruption of Islam. Either way you feel this exonerates Islam as a religion from all responsibility. Islam as a religion is not in anyway pertinent to the argument. I disagree. In the case of 'A' the Mutaween, by definition are Saudi's Pious religious thought police....So Islam is implicated. In the case of 'B' a perversion of the true teaching of Islam still implicates Islam in that they were empowered to act in this way on behalf of Islam and that their actions were tolerated. In this instance in this country Islam is involved. You let Islam off Scott-free. No half measures.....You let all religions off Scott free, for every one of history's religious bloodbaths. Perverted man's twisted interpretation of their respective religion is to blame. The religion itself bears no responsibility. No religion tolerates, encourages ...... or turns a blind eye to atrocities carried out in its name. No religion, never, ....or ever will. But you know it has. History is a catalogue of competeing religions doing down one another and keeping their own flocks in line with more than tea and cake. So my opinion is they have tolerated, they currently, in the case of Islam tolerate, and they will continue to tolerate. The intolerable. And by 'they' I mean just pick one. I certainly don't let Christianity off the hook Now I'm NOT disagreeing that men have taken the word of God and bent it when needs be to suit their needs. But let's just look at this briefly. In essence I'm saying that a religion consists of 3 parts. The Word The clergy The congregation. Let's start with the Clergy. For them religion is partly about power. The religion is run to their advantage and to advance their beleifs over other religions. In increasing their numbers and the power of their 'church' they are doing God's work. The congregations of all beliefs contain the pious, the lip-service believers,the godly, and also the hypocrites and frankly the bloody evil. I'll come back to this later today.

No victories here Joe. ..for you or for me. Can't you just for once..........just for a Worksop millisecond understand that the issue of 15 girls losing their lives in this way calls for a response based on our humanity and not on our side of the debate...........Celebrate what you want with your snide prose. It's clear that you don't believe, or more likely that you feel that there is enough wriggle room to avoid placing responsibility for these deaths at the door of the hated 'Pious ones.' But from all that I've read, I believe ( and so does the world's press,including the Arab world and most of Saudi Arabia) that the Mutaween bare direct responsibility for the needless deaths that day. Their actions were based on a strict interpretation of Sharia law and carried out in the name of Islam and because of that motivation and that authority their actions were tolerated. Eye-witness accounts attested to girls being beaten back into the building by the hands that should have offered them help. That civil defence members were obstructed from carrying in buckets of water into the school to dowse the flames. The fact that the subsequent cover-up glossed over this fooled no one. And shouldn't fool you. It happened in a Muslim country. It happened in the home of the Hajj. It happened because of Sharia Law. It happened because the girls were Muslim. It happened because without a head scarf they were an unfit, polluting sight........It happened because of the burqa. Twist, wriggle, obfuscate, deflect........or deceive if you want but it will just diminish you.

My link There was a stink in the previously complient Saudi press........... But any hint of reform had to wait for the deaths in custody of 2 people in 2 weeks. There's lots on Wiki...this seemed the most balanced and recent. A general report from Time Mag'

Your original reply which is in my email inbox..... before your major,' edit / re-write / re-think', was one line and went......."Why do you restrict the timeline? Afraid? By that I take your answer to my question, (which was to find another religion currently which would tolerate the death of 15 girls because they were not dressed in the proscribed religious manner) to be.............. 'No I can't' Why the re-write Joe..? Afraid?

I get it already.........There aren't any countries/religions that do not have a stain of blood somewhere in there history. None. But this thread is about the burqa..........Some say its just an innocuous item of clothing. I think I've shown that it in this incident it is more than that. If you want to draw parallels Tom look at today's date and tell me another religion today that would tolerate the death of its daughters because they were not dressed in an item of religious clothing......

Well I did research it..... But you spuriously led me to believe that there exists a bespoke, 'Buddhist Religious Police' that I was hithertoo unaware of. And that this force functions along the same lines as the Mutaween on behalf of the CPVPV in Saudi Arabia. And that this organisation was authorised to kill these women possibly I thought because of a breach of some Buddhist doctrine. .. ......So if you trustingly google, as I did, 'Buddhist Religious Police burn girls Phuket' Well, in a Scunthorpe millisecond....you get........ bugger-all! Bugger-all that's relevant anyway. If your point was that all people from all beliefs commit atrocities. I accept the argument and frankly I can't think for the-life-of-me why 'that' has never struck me before. You'll be telling me Dolly Parton sleeps on her back next! But if your point was to signal hypocrisy..Well yes. Thai police entrusted to, 'protect and serve' behaving in this muderous and criminal way. Couldn't think of a more graphic example of betrayal and hypocrisy meself! But, if that's your point.........you missed the point. The Mutaween were authorised (that's the difference), to lock these girls in. It is what they were required and empowered to do. They bear the responsibility for these completely avoidable deaths. But because their actions were on the behalf of their govermnet and their religion, they did no wrong, No hypocrisy here, no charges either, no moral guilt.............because these 15 girls were without a head scarf.... you see! I doubt if the group of ex-cons and religious thugs that made up the Mutaween brigade that day lost any sleep. I mean you can understand the circumstances. The girls were, without ...... a ...... head .... scarf!! I would have just liked to have heard an unqualified condemnation from you, or GE about THIS incident............. I'd have been content with an expression of sympathy. But all we get are snied, 'what about politics' from you, and what amounts to mitigation from the obsolete, or damaged intellectual equipment that Gawd is forced to function with these days. Oh........ and claims that I'm a bigot....... It make you want to weep.

Pray tell!

EXACTLY what I was thinking too.....I was well wierded out! Were the girls in Phuket forceably locked in on the authority of Buddhist religious police? You're right about the hypocrisy all around us. Maybe you could start a thread about it.

No I didn't know about this. It sounds from the brief description equally tragic. Certainly not an incident anyone would try to score cheap debating points with on a chat board.

You chose to reply to my post......So write to my link which was about a dress code enforced so strictly that it meant Religious Muslim police forbade and physically prevented the rescue of 15 teenage girls and locked the doors against their escape from fire because ............they had been involved in a school PE lesson and were not dressed to be seen alive............. All you've said about the incident is that you're, "not in favour of an enforced dress code" The rest amounts to avoidance or mitigation of the incident. Is that really all your woolly minded, perniciously PC brainwashed, supposedly un biggoted mind can can bring itself to say? I'm forced to digress and discuss the PC thinking that motivates your posts. PC thought in nearly every instance is either the acceptance of a lie, a denial of a truth or the cowardly failiure to face up to a truth. 15 girls burn when they could have been saved you say bugger all about it and I'm the bigot! You know there's often truth in humour maybe you can face up to this............Whenever I recall the lines below from 'Yes Prime Minister' it brings the wishy-washy thinking behind the views expressed in the majority of your feeble minded daft, daffy and actually dangerous posts to mind. Sir Humphry "He's against oppression in Africa." PM. "Surely that's a good thing" Sir Humphry. "You don't understand...He's against all oppression in Africa, even the oppression of the Black goverments." PM. "Oh you mean he's a racist"!

If your intention was to produce an example of muddled thinking, contradictory argument, superficial analogies and nebulous observations............And, while doing so fail to make a single lucid point,well you've succeeded brilliantly. Even by your woeful standards the complete twaddle above stands alone. You won't see it of course. Let's take just one tiny example of the superficiality of thinking. The comparison between a nun's habit and women in burqas. Well yes they look alike...well spotted. 10 out of 10 for that. But do nuns wear their habit having the freedom to make that choice, without any coertion, social pressure or the enforcement of an all embracing law..........or because they were born in a Christian country happen to be a woman? Maybe write to the link or don't bother.

I've posted on this before. It's shocking.........criminal.... and fucking disgusting. Before Joe and Allah Elpus start..........Not all Muslim countries...........Not all female Muslims...Not every fire. Just these 15 girls. In this Muslim country. in this school fire.... It sure meant something more to the schoolgirls who screamed their young lives to cinders than Joe's picky,pointless pedandtry and Elpus' (please 'Elpus), mitigation...All for a fucking dress code. Forgive my language and read the link. My link

He just said.....'top of a list' In your blind rush to, 'get one over' somebody you don't even read.......or seem to comprehend the lines you quote.

Here to stay........for a while...we all know how accomodating Thailand is to other cultures, religious beliefs and the money it brings in. It's a revolving door. I was with a girl I've known on and off for 10 yrs in BKK last week. I'd not seen her for 2 yrs and I asked her how things have changed. 'MMMM before Sabai Sabai have falang 90% now Arab, Indian, Chocolate man 90% China and falang little bit' And then she expanded on her theme...... ' When I go disco, everywhere have chocolate man....... We learn and can work, but they all same..They run away, or not pay what they say. If falang like me he cannot come because chocolate man come to me first. I ask taxi can take me disco where not have Chocolate man...........It long way, and EVEN HERE have chocolate man! One offer me 5000 baht but I not go. I scare he live long way and will not give me.'...... ........."Now have soi called, 'soi chocolate'' I guessed this was the low odd number sois off Suk but she said in another area I didn't know. "Here everyone Arab,or India or Chocolate it's very funny". I don't see it being a problem if this new influx adapt to Thai ways. Or meet half-way. It's if the girls start needing protection and pimps become involved that the whole scene changes. I suspect it won't come to that and in the meantime the comparatively docile and honest falang mongerers are becoming highly sought after. Not quite her words but exactly the sentiments she expressed. Pattaya will have its' own Burqa boutiques..........I can imagine the scene......"Humm ......Fatima, does my bomb look big in this"?

I was shagging a punk girl at a party once....she said, "Is that Johnny Rotten?" I said , Nah I've only used it twice!"

If you end up at Fairtex PM me............ I'll introduce you to some of my son's trainers.

Yes..........The 'picky' can trace a sequence to any invention, innovation or discovery and dilute its' inventor's or its' innovator's or its' discoverer's achievement....'On the shoulders of giants' etc. Picky. pedantic......predictable. What can we find to disagree about today? The ipod don't count against say, the discovery of 'Dark matter'. ....... That something like 90% of what we thought we knew about space....... we didn't..............But for now it's the ipod that's had a greater impact on our lives. Worth some applause. But you're right to put the applause into perpective. It just seems so ................Joeish.

Just picked up 100 this morning from a girl who works at a very welcoming ST bar in Pattaya. They are good quality durex. She gets a batch delivered every 3 weeks or so. Needs 'em..... Busy girl and rightly so @1000 bt a 100. ............That's..........er........er........10 baht each. Mind you you're honour bound to ST the voluptuous little provider. I didn't mind too much......she looks a lot better than Gesseppi my, "Shut-uppa yer face" barber in High Wycombe.

The first thing that went through 'my' mind was..........Money...(All that money), can buy medicine but can't buy you health. Puts a perspective on our problems...our worries.