Airbus Still No 1

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Ah well, just as the Boeing bully boys predicted a couple of weeks ago ...... not!

The Prediction

 

Samsonite said:

 

Boeing has made their mistakes in recent years. They lost their will to be

innovative, they were content to rest on their laurels, and their attitude was to ignore the competition. For this they paid dearly. However, things are on the turn around and by the end of the year, in just a few weeks, Boeing will have out sold Airbus for 2005. Wednesday of this week there should be a major announcement both is size and importance.

 

The Reality

 

Airbus Comes From Behind to Beat Boeing in Orders for 5th Year

 

Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS, the world's largest commercial planemaker, beat Boeing Co. in orders in 2005 for the fifth year in a row, coming from behind with a surge of new business in December to finish a record year for the industry.

 

Airbus, based in Toulouse, France, won net orders for 1,055 planes compared with 1,002 for Chicago-based Boeing and delivered 378 planes, 30 percent more than Boeing's 290, Airbus Chief Executive Gustav Humbert said at a briefing before a press conference today in Paris. Earnings rose to a record, with operating profit above a target of 10 percent of sales, he said.

 

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1...axp0&refer=home

 

Good news for the guys in Toulouse, Hamburg and Chester methinks!

 

Tom

[vegasdave 0]

If its not boeing Im not going LOL. That was the saying when I lived in Seattle.

Boeing is indeed a bit slow on the uptake, but look at the laurles they do rest on. Simply some of the best planes ever made. Airbus still has years to go in terms of having planes that have been in service as long. And no matter how you look at it, it still takes multi countries to compete with boeing. It is basicly a gang against just one. Boeing will continue to be a major if not the major player in the game. It is not a matter of 5 years or 10 years for that matter. It is about decades of quality aircraft, and alas airbus is an upstart. It takes many years for new planes to come to market and it is almost like slow motion in regards to sales and projected sales. But with the dreamliner, and the huge range of product boeing has they are here to stay. I predict the 380 will be a boondogle or at the least a minimaly profitable craft. I am not aware of airbus's other departments, but boeing is involved in so many other aspects of aviation besides comercial aircraft that they are a powerhouse. I have always felt that airbus planes are flimsy and poorly constructed, though they seem to be fairly safe. But lets see how they hold up over time. Yes it is nice to have bragging rights and the management at boeing needs to pay attention, but believe me they are far from a second rate company.

[CheshireTom 1,377]

vegasdave,

 

And no matter how you look at it, it still takes multi countries to compete with boeing. It is basicly a gang against just one.

 

There's me thinking that Boeing parts are built all over the place nowadays .... you know, places like Japan.

 

No need to knock Airbus and nobody suggets that Boeing is second-rate............ just that Airbus sells more aeroplanes, that's all. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that you sounded just a little bit bitter.

 

Tom

[Feileacan 32]

Boeing is indeed a bit slow on the uptake, but look at the laurles they do rest on. Simply some of the best planes ever made.

Don't forget the saying. "You can't rest on your Laurels"

[lemons 0]

I've always found the Boeing 777 the best aircraft for economy passengers. Pretty hard to beat, and noticibly better than the Airbus models I've been in.

 

Having said that, I understand the new airbus will be something special.

[Samsonite 181]

The Reality

Realty?

Airbus pulled 377 orders out of the hat in the last month of the year AND, waited until the middle of January to make this announcement??!!

Does anyone else think this is little odd?

If the orders weren't completed and signed by 31 December are they really 2005 orders?

The whole matter in which Airbus has gone about this smells similiar to the methods they use to fund and sell aircraft.

More importantly, look how the numbers break down. The vast majority of Airbus orders were for the 320 and its derivatives.

They booked only 172 orders and commitments (87 firm orders) for the A350 in 2005, 28 short of its publicly-stated target of 200.

The B787? 235 firm orders in 2005 alone.

Orders of the A380? 20 firm orders.

The B747? 43 firm orders.

There is such a huge gap in the Airbus product line, by the time they close it, if they close it, it will be too late.

The A340, 15, 2005 orders, can't compete with the B777, 154 firm 2005 orders. and while Airbus in talking "improving" the 340, in "realty" it will be discontinued. Wait and watch.

Both manufactureres had record sales in 2005, but it may be the last for Airbus for several years.

As I've said before, the next few years are going to be very interesting.

[BigDUSA 71]

Realty?

 

The whole matter in which Airbus has gone about this smells similiar to the methods they use to fund and sell aircraft.

You wouldn't be referring to the massive subsides EU gives to Airbus? Hell if our government gave the same amount to the boys in Seattle they could undercut Airbus prices.

[Gus 97]

Being British (European) I like and support Airbus, but in my humble opinion the 747-400 is the best aircraft around.

It seems so spacious, with a window seat on an Airbus, the fuselage seems to cramp you up more, with the 744 it goes straight up. Also the 744 has an area at the very back to stretch your legs and look out of the emergecy exit door windows, which are quite a bit bigger than Airbus.

I made these opinions when flying Virgin to LAX several times they used the A343 and 744.

It has to be good for passengers if there are 2 major competitors building aircraft.

 

Who knows in the future, with all the money the Russians are making from Gas and Oil perhaps Antonov and Tupelev will enter the competition

[CheshireTom 1,377]

C'mon guys! A simple "Well done Airbus" wouldn't be so difficult, would it? And I thought you blokes liked a winner!

 

I'm sure that you'll let us know at the end of 2006 how things are going. In the meantime, Airbus will just bask in the knowledge that it is still the world's number one as voted by the procurement divisions of the world's airlines even allowing for the "we'll let you steal all your employees pension funds as long as you buy Boeing" nonsense that's part and parcel of Chap 11. In the meantime just watch out for the announcement of their Virgin all-composite, supersonic, VTOL super-jumbo which will whisk you from your local Tesco's car-park non-stop to BKK in a shade under three hours.

[Samsonite 181]

C'mon guys! A simple "Well done Airbus" wouldn't be so difficult, would it?

Yes.

Keep an eye on these magic numbers for the month of December and see if the don't get counted again for the year 2006.

[wacmedia 277]

The whole matter in which Airbus has gone about this smells similiar to the methods they use to fund and sell aircraft.

 

Hi,

 

Think Boeing get funding from US Defence spending. I'm sure both have similar auditing methods to put a bright gloss on the figures. C'est la vie, Mon Ami.

[Samsonite 181]

Think Boeing get funding from US Defence spending. I'm sure both have similar auditing methods to put a bright gloss on the figures. C'est la vie, Mon Ami.

Apples and Oranges.

Of course Boeing gets government defense contracts. It is the biggest defense contractor in The States.

As to Airbus and their business ethics, or lack thereof, there are many in the aviation business who feel it was Airbus and their cut throat (below cost) pricing that drove Lockheed out of the commercial airline business and weaken Douglas (McDonell-Douglas) to the point they mergered with Boeing. No matter which way you want to color it, the only time Boeing received government money for the development of a commercial passenger aircraft was under the SST program back in the '60s. Airbus, OTOH, has received what from the European Government Consortium? 3 or 4 Billion Euros as seed money for the A380, and just in the last few months another 3 1/2 Billon Euros to "help" with development of the A350?

Bon Chance, mon ami.

[wacmedia 277]

Of course Boeing gets government defense contracts. It is the biggest defense contractor in The States.

 

Hi,

 

I'm sure they can use that money to help their commercial airline division. Don't forget that US and EU also subsidize their farmers so they can dump food surpluses in the 3rd World. The Thais were complaining about barriers to their prawns been imported into US not so long ago.

[CheshireTom 1,377]

Samsonite,

 

C'mon ....... you're sounding very bitter again. Nobody is attacking Boeing so why attack Airbus and deride its products and business practices.

 

There is a huge difference between subsidies (Boeing) and loans (Airbus) ....... one has to be repaid! The reason Airbus sells cheaper aircraft is because it has a cheaper production process and a much more vibrant and flexible workforce. Oh, and of course nowadays ...... huge economies of scale that Boeing can't match.!

 

Tom

[JohnnyK 28]

They all get subsidies, impossible to operate otherwise.

Airbus subs are just more visible.

US subsidies operate a little differently. Gov't says develop and build it (often with cost-plus contracts) and we will buy xxx units, thus guaranteeing a market for it.

Costly R&D etc is then usable in the non-military sector.

Its big biz, that's all.

[Sailfast 503]

They all get subsidies, impossible to operate otherwise.

Airbus subs are just more visible.

US subsidies operate a little differently. Gov't says develop and build it (often with cost-plus contracts) and we will buy xxx units, thus guaranteeing a market for it.

Costly R&D etc is then usable in the non-military sector.

Its big biz, that's all.

I agree. I think they both build wonderful aircraft.

 

Also, I have to add that imho these arguements are rather silly.

 

Sailfast

[JohnnyK 28]

We don't get to choose which one we fly in.

The airlines do that.

Just get me there safely, at a decent price and reasonably on time.

[CheshireTom 1,377]

We don't get to choose which one we fly in.

The airlines do that.

Just get me there safely, at a decent price and reasonably on time.

John,

 

Exactly. Probably the best economy product I've sampled was on Singapore's 777ER from Manchester to Singapore. On the other hand, the worst was Emirates and Thai's 777s with their ridiculous seat configurations.

 

Back to Qatar's biz class on its A330s in a week or two though.

 

Tom

[wacmedia 277]

Hi,

 

A link for you guys who are interested in new developments/airlines.

 

http://www.airbus.com/en/myairbus/headlinenews/index.jsp

[Samsonite 181]

How about the other side of the story?

 

http://heraldnet.com/stories/06/01/18/100bus_airbus001.cfm

 

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/17/business/airbus.php

 

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/256050_air18.html

 

http://www.thenewstribune.com/business/sto...p-4931357c.html

[wolfeight 0]

As a Brit,and coming from a fine country which has produced major components for the entire Airbus range (windscreen wipers and mealtrays to name just two !)

I would love to see Airbus do well.

But what sticks in my mind when Airbus is mentioned is that jet at an airshow that decided to ignore the pilots instructions and attempt to land in a forest using its "innovative" flight envelope system.

 

After seeing that,Im happier on a Boeing.

[echster 1]

This subject is so.......yawn!

 

It's an accounting gimmick. When you look at it from a true perspective, and not that of a fan, Airbus and Boeing count their orders differently. IOW, it's counting apples vs. oranges.

 

It's clear Airbus counts every order in the year irregardless if they have a signed contract. Boeing only counts its firm orders with a signed contract. See, apples vs. oranges.

 

To me, the very telling story is 70%+ of Airbus' orders were for the A320 and smaller family. I mean, they're not making money with these planes. Their widebody fleet is really suffering while Boeing's is thriving.

 

2006 should not be any different. There are going to be several large widebody orders this year, and as it stands, they're Boeing's to lose. Premium airlines like Qantas, Singapore, Cathay, and BA are in line for new long haul fleets.

 

IMHO, Airbus has killed their A340 line with the introduction of the A350. On top of that, Boeing will have its B787 on the market 2-3 years before the A350. It's unlikely we'll see many - if any - A380 orders until the first few are in service (now scheduled for November 2006). Airlines want to make sure it lives up to its billing money-wise. Airbus has paid millions to airlines for missing promised savings targets with its A340 fleet and there are rumors the A380 may not meet expectations either (however I probably think they will....or be very close).

 

Oh man, I love this aircraft shit! I can talk about it for hours!

[spacebass 0]

The real point is:How on earth could Boeing, effectively the only manufacturer of large passenger jets in the world at that time, let it go to anyone??????

 

No wonder the yanks are spewing sour grapes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 20, 2006 by spacebass

[CheshireTom 1,377]

C'mon echster ..... they both mess around with firm orders, options, letters of intent etc, not to mention a good deal of arm-twisting from governments when the question of trade deals comes along. A much easier and more accurate reflection of both companies' fortunes, or in Boeing's case, misfortunes, can be judged by the actual number of aircraft that they delivered to customers in 2005. What are the figures? 30%? 40% more aircraft delivered by Airbus and will continue along those lines for the next couple of years at least. As for future markets the Indians and Chinese will have a bigger say in that than Qantas, BA, Cathay etc.

 

Nobody has got a clue how things will turn out this year or next. As Samsonite so spectacularly demonstrated, the Boeing bully boys can't even predict correctly whats going to happen in a couple of weeks time, never mind a couple of years.

 

Tom

[Gus 97]

I think two of our eminent aircraft experts Tom and echster should head a forum bid to buy an A380 for low cost ops Round the World.

Two high seat density aircraft flying daily services(ish)

LHR-BKK-Tokyo-LAX-LHR and LHR-LAX-Tokyo-BKK-LHR

Say £100/200$ per leg, bring your own booze and grub, or buy on board

 

This would mean LHR-BKK £100 + £100 return + taxes

Just hyperthetical really, but a RTW bus service type low cost will probably happen with the A380. No way will they go for the luxury liners first touted, pack em in and sell em cheap.

 

Airbus A/C ventilation on APU is not very good, I was on the stand at BKK in a Thai A330 waiting to fly to Chiang Mai, had to off load some bags, waited about 45 minutes, pretty hot and no operative vents.

I remember the A321 when that was on the stand at Palma majorca and a dry ice type condensation comes out of the vents on start up.