What is the most effective fighting technique?

[jackcorbett 2]

First, I'd like to share with everyone I video I shot of three falang boxers fighting three Muay Thai boxers at the bar complex next door to Sky-Top along with the accompanying article I wrote. I have very strong opinions on the subject that would seem to be justified in the video (actually there were four bouts altogether). But this is only one series of bouts in one place at the same level of proficiency for both the falang and Thai boxers. The video also encompasses only two forms of Martial Arts--classical boxing and Muay Thai. http://www.alphapro.com/looking/index.html

Edited January 18, 2006 by jackcorbett

[Chorp_dat 0]

Thanks for the Vid clip!

Well after watching a few times,and having 25 years knowledge/ particiaption in the sport I have a few comments.

The first fight , the Western guy is at least 3 weight classes above the Thai , it looked like a 15 stone man against an eight stone man.

The 2nd fight is a closer weight group as is the 3rd.

All 3 fights show poor to intermediate techniques and that includes the Thais.

The style the Westerners are attempting is Muay Thai , not boxing, their opponents are the typical boxers you will find in the Best Friend Bar/ Siren bar , a pretty low standard.

The Westerners had more success with the hands , mainly because their leg techniques are ineffective, a bit flashy in places, and because the opponents defence against hands is poor. I am not making excuses for the Thais but apart from the first mismatch I think that the pairs are reasonably close in standard, but I see little proved ( ie which style is best ) in these bouts.

If you can get some gifted amateur boxers (GG std ) against some of Lumpini's up and coming stylists , in the same weight category ,I will be able to make some comparisons.

But the clips were enjoyable.

Thanks!

Edited January 18, 2006 by Chorp_dat

[suitcase 0]

I agree with Chorp Dat that the videos show little that indicate that boxing is better than martial arts. Both fighters were using Muay Thai and I expected to see a traditional boxer. Their kicking techniques where not at all those of an expert in the Martial Arts and I found "most" of their blows to be rather slow.

 

I am a 2 degree black belt Sensei in traditional Shotokan Karate. I started with Judo at a young age and found that it wasn't good for self-defense since the opponent had to be close before I could use the techniques. I got some training in Aikido, Taikwondo, and 3 other styles of Karate before settling with Shotokan which is a good combination of offence and defence and about 50/50 upper extremity and lower extremity blows, blocks and techniques. I competed in and coached gymnastics which gave me speed, balance, and flexibility to add to my martial arts training.

 

My opinion is that someone very skilled in Martial Arts would kick the ass of an equal size boxing opponent. I can use my legs as well as my hands and my legs are much longer than a boxers reach. I am under 6 feet tall and have easily kicked a 6'5" opponent in the side of the head with enough force to take him to the ground and still remain on my feet. I respect the training and skill of a boxer but a dedicated Martial Artist has equal training and skill and two more weapons (feet & legs) than the boxer so my money would always be on a "real expert" Martial Artist.

 

If the fight was restricted to fists only, I think the Martial Artist would be lying on the mat while the first bell is still ringing in his ears.

 

Thanks for the video's and your story.

 

Suitcase

[soibj 0]

I'm quite sure that the Muay Thai boxers who are boxing the falangs in this video are not trying to their fullest and maybe ex-champs and what not. I have heard from numerous sources that Muay Thai is one of the best fighting styles. The style was derived from martial arts and adapted by the Thai people to create their own style.

 

FYI they said that the style Bruce Lee had the most difficulty fighting was against Muay Thai.

[suitcase 0]

FYI they said that the style Bruce Lee had the most difficulty fighting was against Muay Thai.

Bruce Lee is my hero; The best of the best! His style took the best of all of the other styles and put them all together. Undefeatable. It was his philosophy of fighting that encouraged me to study more than one style of martial arts.

 

Most movie makers today have to speed up the film to make the martial arts techniques look impressive. In Bruce Lee's movies, they had to slow down the film so that the audiences could see what he was doing. He would have made quick work of any boxer.

 

Suitcase

[sinbinjack 251]

Hi guys, I will be in fun town from the end of April to the end of august this year, is there any place you can suggest that I can see good May Thai, i tried the ring in the bar at the start of walking street and was very disappointed at the "show" even as a novice spectator I recognize the lack of competition there.any help will be appreciated.

[sensei 0]

I believe that many martial artists that DO NOT fight regularly place TOO much emphasis on kicking techniques. Hands are always fast and can be lethal, as any proficient boxer can demonstrate. However, it IS better to have a full arsenal of tools and attacking methods at your disposal when the time is right for their usage. Most martial arts styles train their students to be much more than just a fighter. They teach the discipline to endure the mental challenge of combat and the willpower to persevere despite injury or overwhelming odds. Most styles are not overly concerned with weight classes or size, but instead concentrate on self defense against ANY opponent. (Most will be bigger and stronger than the student...) Personally I give boxers ALOT of credit, since they actually DO what they train for, FIGHT, instead of theorizing about how their techniques will actually work in a reality situation. At the end of the day, the better fighter will always win, despite style or size...Peace.

[Agent Orange 1]

With any style of unarmed combat it's the same as anything else really, the more you put in the more you'll get out, you must practise until it becomes second nature.

I also studied Shotokan for about 3 years but found the concentration on kata & perfect technique & not enough emphasis on hard sparring a bit tedious after this time. I then switched to Kyokushinkai which was a lot more demanding fitness-wise & was not quite so concerned with perfect technique but more with actual streetfighting techniques with very realistic/painful sparring sessions.

I actually fought knockdown at Crystal Palace in the British Open & Fought in the semi at The Welsh Open

My best mates at the time were 2 boxers & friend of theirs that practised some muay/kickboxing hybrid, we used to get together about once a week get psyched up & go for it almost no holds barred.

The Mixed Martial Arts club at our gym looks very good, Jujtsu,Wing-chun,Thai boxing,wrestling, Karate,TKD all rolled into one.

 

Maybe soon

 

Orange

[windynoi 0]

Entertaining video, however I think it shows the Thais did what they were obviously paid for i.e. Take it easy on the Farang

[jackcorbett 2]

Anyone ever see video footage of Jack Dempsey in his prime? When he lost his title to Gene Tunney he weighed around 190 pounds. Prior to this he was in the 180's. But he was a whirling dervish in the ring often defeating opponents weighing 250 pounds. Jack never needed anything other than his hands. I still think it is going to all come down to the shortest distance between two points....a man's head and that delivering the killing blow is hand to head, not foot to the head. Assuming of course, sufficient speed and power.

 

And yes...the first falang outweights his Thai opponent by a decisive margin. But had his opponent been Dempsey it wouldn't have really mattered or if he had been in a movie extolling the virtues of the martial arts. As to the falang fighters not being able to land decisive blows with their feet, I'd say it's because it is much harder to do so, which is the reason that even the second Thai boxer seems to be thinking: "the hell with using my feet. My oponent isn't getting anywhere using his feet and I won't either so I'm going to use something that works--my hands."

[PokerUpFront 0]

The mixed martial arts forums like vale tudo, UFC and Pride as well as others, where all styles are allowed to compete using most of their complete arsenals, are the best places to look for the most effective one on one fighting styles

 

Before mixed martial arts hit the mainstream, most of my training was in two Okinawan styles AND I had dabbled in Western boxing and wrestling as well as Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Moo Duk Kwon, Jui-jitsu and, yes, even Tae Kwon Do. I was very excited the first time a Shorin-ryu stylist got in the UFC ring. Alas, in no time he was wiped out and my dedicated training in Jui-jitsu and Muay Thai began.

 

If you watch what wins in those venues now, you will see a combination of 4 major styles. Western wrestling is used to get a man to the ground and keep him there with yourself on top. It is also used to defend against take-downs. Jui-jitsu is used for staying on top of opponents as well as for finishing techniques, joint manipulation and chokes. It is also used for defending when you are on the bottom. Muay Thai is used to administer punishing leg kicks and to defend while in the upright position. Western boxing techniques are used to administer attacks with the hands and these are what end the highest percentage of fights, one man on top pummeling the man underneath him. Just like most bar fights where there aren't any rules and just like what happened when two of the best wing chun fighters went at it on video when one attacked the other at a seminar

 

The number one factor in determining the winner of a fight is size. That is why all fighting organizations have weight classes. If you take two fighters that are close in ability and speed, the bigger man wins. Even Bruce Lee talked about this in Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

 

If you are over 30 and don't want to learn a martial art from scratch, I would suggest this training regime. First, alternate "shooting" the legs and defending the "shoot" with a training partner. Follow up this defense with some, non-contacting, knees to the "shooter's" head. While "shooting", try to keep your head up and eyes on your opponent so that you can defend against those knees. Defend a "shoot" by jumping back while directing the "shooter" to the ground with your hands on his shoulders/back/head/neck. Do about 30 "shoots" each and 15 times let the "shooter" succeed in taking the opponent down. Start off in slow motion and add speed and contact as your familiarity and confidence increase. To advance this drill, after the takedown, the "shooter" should attempt to mount while the man taken down attempts to "guard" from being mounted. Second, learn the old "1-2" combo and practice wailing away with it on a heavy bag (wrap your hands and wear bag gloves). Just wail away for a minute then rest for a minute while your training partner wails away, then repeat, 15 times each. The average bar fight is over in under a minute and one opponent is usually an out of shape inebriated dude, so if you can keep punching longer than him, you will have bragging rights when it's over. To advance this drill, repeat this drill, but in slow motion with each of you going at each other. Don't worry about blocking, instead worry about footwork that will allow you to flank your opponent where he is less likely to have an effective defense/offense, keep the attack up no matter what. Add a little speed as your confidence increases, but pull your punches. If you decide to try adding contact wear headgear and those oversized 16-24 oz. gloves. Remember to do a brief limbering warm-up before starting. Do this workout 2 or 3 times a week for 12 weeks and only very experienced fighters will be able to kick your ass.

 

One of my favorite episodes over the years is when talking to a billy bullshitter and they say something like, "well I would just shoot you" I love watching the look on their face when I then expose my concealed carry and say, "yeah, but where is yours" Check and mate.

Edited January 19, 2006 by PokerUpFront

[olyboy 0]

All grappling techniques hinge on hip postion. Grapplers are by far superior fighters as the mixed martial arts competions have borne out over the last 12 or so years. Learning to be a good wrestler takes a lifetime, learning to throw a few effective strikes does not. Take an accomplished world class grappler ;train him in few finishing moves , and practice some well placed striking and you will see how most of the winners in MMA have come about.

[suitcase 0]

All grappling techniques hinge on hip postion. Grapplers are by far superior fighters as the mixed martial arts competions have borne out over the last 12 or so years. Learning to be a good wrestler takes a lifetime, learning to throw a few effective strikes does not. Take an accomplished world class grappler ;train him in few finishing moves , and practice some well placed striking and you will see how most of the winners in MMA have come about.

Bruce Lee was once told by a jujitsu expert that his style was no good because 80% of real fights ended up on the ground.

 

Bruce Lee answered: "Yes, but 100% of real fights begin standing up."

 

He was also an expert grappler and a well rounded fighter would certainly have some training in grappling.

 

Suitcase

[Mescalito 19]

My own sensei (aikido), while dedicated to that particular martial art, also acquired training in traditional "western" boxing, jui-jitsu and grappling, among other things, in the 40+ years he's been studying & teaching martial arts. He includes grappling in his instruction with all of his students, from the newest beginners to his black belts. While his primary focus was on aikido, he also recognized that in the real world, opponents have an annoying habit of not doing what they're supposed to do, hence the instruction in other areas.

[olyboy 0]

Bruce Lee was once told by a jujitsu expert that his style was no good because 80% of real fights ended up on the ground.

 

Bruce Lee answered: "Yes, but 100% of real fights begin standing up."

 

He was also an expert grappler and a well rounded fighter would certainly have some training in grappling.

 

Suitcase

I dont remember him claiming to to be an expert grappler, in any of his interviews. Or articles written about him

 

" To become a champion requires a condition that causes an individual to approach with pleasure the most tedious practice session "" that is one of his quotes I had written down on an index card I studied before I trained.

 

Bruce Lee was a great man, pioneer and not what I would call ordinary by any stretch.

 

 

Nothing wrong with any style of martial arts, but knowing a few submission holds and how to fall into the gaurd is a far cry from being a great or even good grappler.

[fzbkk 0]

That fight with the "huge" White guy on the "tiny" Thai guy was disgusting. I find it hard to believe it was even allowed to happen! My guess is the white guy was about 130kg's.... and that thai dude about 70kg's max.

[lostinpattaya 0]

In a Muay Thai fight the scoring system is biased towards kicking.If punches scored the same as kicks then you would see very few kicks being used.Punching is a much better fighting technique.

[MC_Ldop 40]

I studied tae kwon do when I was younger and did a fair bit of boxing a few years ago. I took up the former because I was following some friends, while the latter was my own choice. I don't think either martial art is particularly strong in a fight. Tae kwon do has too much kicking and you're pretty much screwed if you're taken to the ground. Boxing by its very nature is limited, since you're only worried about hitting and protecting the upper half of your body.

 

Any of the MMA leagues can show you how strong Brazillian jiu-jitsu and wrestling are. Certainly the best fighter is one that has strong grappling and striking skills, but I'd take an excellent grappler with mediocre striking over an excellent striker with mediocre grappling any day of the week.

[joekicker 53]

In a Muay Thai fight the scoring system is biased towards kicking.If punches scored the same as kicks then you would see very few kicks being used.Punching is a much better fighting technique.

 

Yes about the scoring. You may notice that very few Thais have the upper body strength, development or indeed attention to it that westerners have. The whole thing that starts when you're a kid is different. Thai kids are taught that going out and kicking down trees is a Good Thing, but western kids learn that lifting weights is.

 

I believe you'll find the muay thai scoring is the result, not the cause of this.

 

A good western boxer will kick the spit out of a muay thai fighter in a boxing match without doubt. He might well do it anyway, but legs are longer than arms of course.

 

For all the attention it gets in Thailand there have been a VERY few good boxers come out of this country.

[MC_Ldop 40]

For all the attention it gets in Thailand there have been a VERY few good boxers come out of this country.

 

There's almost always a Thai holding a major belt at bantamweight or below.

[jackcorbett 2]

Shortest distance between two points is from the hand to the head, not the foot to the head. Pure physics. And if you have the speed to get the punch in there and you have the power, it's over.

[MC_Ldop 40]

Shortest distance between two points is from the hand to the head, not the foot to the head. Pure physics. And if you have the speed to get the punch in there and you have the power, it's over.

 

That's hardly sound logic. The foot to the nads is practically the same distance and legs move faster.

[joekicker 53]

There's almost always a Thai holding a major belt at bantamweight or below.

 

Yeah, with a 7-2 record including five fights in Korat. You would be very disappointed to learn how the WBC works at that level, I think. Mr Suleiman does like his Thai antiques, for sure.

 

True, real, world-class fighters are very rare in Thailand.

[casper_uk 12]

Shortest distance between two points is from the hand to the head, not the foot to the head. Pure physics. And if you have the speed to get the punch in there and you have the power, it's over.

Depending on proximity ..... the shortest distance between two points is actually the head to the nose.

 

Not exactly queensbury rules ...... but in most fights i've seen, the winner is the last man standing.

 

2nd Dan Shotokan Karate ........ this has afforded me confidence, balance and the physics of a punch.

 

Nearly 10 years involvement in Nightclubs has taught me not to 'f*ck around' ..... if you are going to do it, do it.

 

First punch 'nearly' always wins.

[Guest andgerrard]

Depending on proximity ..... the shortest distance between two points is actually the head to the nose.

 

[/qoute]

 

Ahhh the 'Kirkby Kiss'

 

[qoute]

 

First punch 'nearly' always wins.

 

Probably' He shouldn't really get up.......... should he?

edit

My quotes aint working

Edited December 2, 2007 by andgerrard