Photography and Privacy

[tomcat76 327]

Aren't there some cultures (not saying Thailand is one of them...) where being photographed really is objectionable at the religious/cultural belief level?

 

Also, even though not "illegal" or "legally actionable", I can see where taking too much license with one's camera, in the wrong place or at the wrong time, can possibly interfere with one's quality of life... Some people walking around in places like Bangkok or Pattaya take their privacy/anonymity VERY seriously and simply don't want to be photographed, and are in a position to, well, DO something about it. NOT to endorse thuggish behavior....I'm just sayin'....

[Gabor 296]

Gabor, those louts are considered journalists.

 

Again, my only point is, take a photo of anyone in public, celebrity or not, and you can do almost anything you want with it except use a recognizable image without a model release to promote a product.

 

There is no PC paranoia about that. You are out of line because it has nothing to do with America. You have similar laws in Europe!

 

If I take your photo and put it on the boards or publish in my local newspaper, no problem.

 

If I use it to sell my favorite beer and you object, I have a potential problem.

 

Please people, read what I wrote. Don't put words in my mouth that I did not say. I agreed with the op on every point he made. I said so. As a seller of images I was simply adding an addendum.

 

Edit: for Gabor

 

Hypothetical situation

 

You are at FLB partying

 

I am there taking photos and you toast the camera holding up a bottle of Heineken

 

I sell that photo to an advertising agency who uses your image (without your permission) to promote Heineken Beer

 

Is that American PC paranoia? Would you not expect either compensation for your photographic endorsement or removal of your image from the advertising campaign?

 

Thank you for clarify your point.... in this we are fully agree....

[plahgat 523]

PORNOGRAPHIC PHOTOS, VIDEOS

This is a very tricky point, as photographer can run afoul of several different sets of laws. The laws are strictest if you plan to make commercial use of the pics, but even if you only take them for non-commercial, personal use, you can find yourself in violation of criminal law. Most importantly, you need to be damn sure the models (male or female) are over the age of 18 and that you have acceptable proof of age. Beyond that, the situation is so complicated I’m not going to say more, other than do a lot of research if you plan to take XXX-rated pics or videos.

 

The rules stipulated in this thread is mostly about pictures taken in public places, but how about private nude pictures taken in hotelrooms and then shown on these Forums?

I think this is the section of the OPs posting that is the most important for us and affects some of the posters on this and other Pattaya Boards!

 

Plahgat

[Norfloxacin400 87]

taking photos in a red light district where people may want to be photographed or illegal stuff may be going down is always going to be dicey. no mater what country you are in. There is a time and place for everything.

[rascall 130]

Evil,

 

Thanks for a very detailed and informative post.

 

I have often wondered if the pornographic photos of my Thai girlfriend that I have taken personally, (see http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42628) is against the law. She has consented to me taking the photos and has often posed up. I have read yours all the corresponding posts, and the answer is still not clear to me.

 

Can you have a look at the above link and tell me what you reckon. I have loads more pics to post, but do not want to get a tap on the shoulder the next time I arrive at BKK immigration.

 

I am not selling the photos, only posting them on the trip reports for others to admire (or not)

 

Thanks.

 

Rascall.

[joekicker 53]

I have often wondered if the pornographic photos of my Thai girlfriend that I have taken personally, (see http://www.pattayatalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42628) is against the law. She has consented to me taking the photos and has often posed up. I have read yours all the corresponding posts, and the answer is still not clear to me.

 

Taking photos is never against the law, any more than suicide is againt the law. If no one knows about them, they're not illegal. They can be illegal according to how they are used. Good example going on right now in Indonesia where some dumbell showbiz celebrities sex-taped themselves. NOW the pix have hit the public circuits, so now they are in deep trouble for porn.

 

IF someone complains about your photos, you COULD get a tap on the shoulder, yes. You COULD be prosecuted under Thai law, yes. IF there is a complaint made.

 

.

[Evil Penevil 7,628]

Can you have a look at the above link and tell me what you reckon. I have loads more pics to post, but do not want to get a tap on the shoulder the next time I arrive at BKK immigration.

 

I am not selling the photos, only posting them on the trip reports for others to admire (or not)

 

Thanks.

 

Rascall.

 

Rascall - First off, I'm not qualified to give advice about real-life legal situations in Thailand. I have enough background to discuss broad principles of street photography, but not specific applications of the law, especially not in Thailand.

 

With that proviso, here are some suggestions for questions to ask an attorney who is qualified to advise on Thai law:

 

Section 287 of the Thai Penal Code makes it illegal to produce pornography for purposes of TRADE. Is production of sexually explicit material for non-commercial purposes, with one's wife as the model, also considered illegal?

 

Are there any cases in which non-Thai citizens have been arrested and tried in Thailand for producing sexually explicit material for private use only?

 

Has the Supreme Court of Thailand made any rulings which are considered definitive on the difference between pornography for commercial purposes and sexually explicit material for private use?

 

Keep in mind that case law and judicial review don't have as firm a tradition in Thailand as in the West. Also, law enforcement agencies in Thailand may function on occasion in a manner that is very difference than in the West.

 

Here's an article from a Thai law forum that touches on some of these questions. It was written by lecturer in law at a Thai university, but the author isn't Thai. INDECENCY ON THE INTERNET AS A CHALLENGE TO THAI LAW The relevant point is: "...Thai law prohibits production, distribution and possession of pornography for the purpose of trade only, although paragraph 2 of the Section can be interpreted in a broader sense. "

 

Strikes me that you could be in more trouble for posting the pics on the Internet than taking them. But that would assume: 1) Thai law enforcement has any interest in investigating such cases; 2) law enforcement agents could discover the real identity behind the handle "rascal;" and 3) a prosecutor could prove you and only you could upload the pics to the Net. In the West, there would be reasonable doubt because many different people can "share" one board handle (that's often how trolls manage massive numbers of posts in a short time, they work as team with one handle). But I have no idea how far that defense would fly in a Thai court. That's why you need to talk to an attorney who's qualified in Thai law.

 

My advice, and take it with however many grains of salt you choose, would be for resident ex-pats not to upload sexually explicit homemade material to a forum, especially not while in Thailand. There's probably only a small chance of running afoul of the law, but why take a chance at all?

 

Hope this helps.

 

Evil

Edited June 27, 2010 by Evil Penevil

[Evil Penevil 7,628]

Aren't there some cultures (not saying Thailand is one of them...) where being photographed really is objectionable at the religious/cultural belief level?

 

Definitely. I would be very discrete in taking pictures of the Amish in Intercourse Village, PA or Coptic Christians in Cairo. But I was discussing in the OP common situations on the street and in bars in Pattaya. I know better than most there are some individuals in Pattaya and Bangkok who don't want their pics taken, but their objections are based more concern about Interpol or their parole officers or the research department of America's Most Wanted recognizing their pics than religious/cultural beliefs.

 

Also, even though not "illegal" or "legally actionable", I can see where taking too much license with one's camera, in the wrong place or at the wrong time, can possibly interfere with one's quality of life... Some people walking around in places like Bangkok or Pattaya take their privacy/anonymity VERY seriously and simply don't want to be photographed, and are in a position to, well, DO something about it. NOT to endorse thuggish behavior....I'm just sayin'....

 

taking photos in a red light district where people may want to be photographed or illegal stuff may be going down is always going to be dicey. no mater what country you are in. There is a time and place for everything.

 

I'd say that if you are worried about taking photos in the street, don't do it. Same-same if you are worried about driving in Thailand, or picking up freelancers on Beach Road or swimming in the ocean. Just don't do it. I'm aware of the risks, but not worried enough to stop taking photos. Let's say I enjoy the challenge of getting photos of more difficult subjects.

 

I do think the notion of violence against street photographers is exaggerated, at least when it comes to Pattaya. I've never had anyone ask me to delete a photo, much less try to take my camera from me. There are a few who don't want their pics taken and I'll most often respect their wishes, but I don't care what some of those guys think. If they want to take things to the level of discussion with bodily harm, I'll deal with that situation when it arises.

 

 

 

In Bangkok, it is different. In parts of the City of Angels, some of the less angelic residents really, really, really don't want their pics taken. Unless you're able to handle the consequences, it's unwise to take their photos.

 

Some pics I took in Bangkok on Suk Soi 5:

 

---

 

 

 

I am aware of the need for discretion in some situations. Here's a photo I took in Pattaya Beer Garden where I masked the identity of the guys in the photo:

 

And another from FLB:

 

 

 

The rules stipulated in this thread is mostly about pictures taken in public places, but how about private nude pictures taken in hotelrooms and then shown on these Forums?

I think this is the section of the OPs posting that is the most important for us and affects some of the posters on this and other Pattaya Boards!

 

Plahgat

 

I answered a similar question in post #32. I do worry about the consequences of taking nude shots of girls. and that's why I don't do it.

 

Evil

[Evil Penevil 7,628]

Try printing out the blurb from the opening post and showing it to some Thai who is offended because you have taken his or her photo.

 

Remember TIT and the law of the street rules and they will do at the time what seems right to them rather than listen to some made up pseudo legal argument.

 

Time to read the writing on the wall, Arno!

 

From Daniel 5:25-28

:25 And this is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

:26 This is the interpretation of each word. MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it;

:27 TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting;

:28 UPHARSIN: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to Pattaya Addicts and Pattaya Live (actually, the Bible says "Medes and Persians," but I thought I'd make it more relevant.)

 

Sorry, MM. I know I should have ignored him, but I couldn't resist any Myrrh.

 

Evil

Edited June 28, 2010 by Evil Penevil

[Upharsin 0]

Time to read the writing on the wall, ....

 

From Daniel 5:25-28...etc

????

Maybe try replying to the point I was making?

Edited June 28, 2010 by Upharsin

[Evil Penevil 7,628]

????

Maybe try replying to the point I was making?

 

It wasn't much of a point, but since you're a glutton for punishment ...

 

Try printing out the blurb from the opening post and showing it to some Thai who is offended because you have taken his or her photo.

 

Remember TIT and the law of the street rules and they will do at the time what seems right to them rather than listen to some made up pseudo legal argument.

 

Arno, cousin, Myrrh, Upharsin and Syb are right. It would not be a good idea to print out the OP and read it to a Thai male in an attempt to deflect his anger. In fact, I doubt a printout of my OP - or anyone else's OP - would serve much use in a street confrontation in Pattaya or anywhere in the world, except maybe if you rolled it up real tight and jabbed it in your opponent's eye.

 

Along those lines, it wouldn't be a good idea to frost a cake with motor oil or to lubricate an automoble engine with cake frosting, either. The purpose of the OP was inform BMs about the legal basis of street photography, not to give tips on handling angry Thai males. Personally, I've never had a Thai male raise his eyebrows, much less confront me, over picture taking. I doubt I ever will. But if your rather fanciful situation were to occur, I'd apologize and leave as quickly as possible.

 

Confrontations with scumbag non-Thais are a very different thing. Not one step backwards. But on a practical note, singing "Men of Harlech" in a loud voice has proved a very effective tactic around Suk Soi 5 in Bangkok.

 

Evil

Edited July 2, 2010 by Evil Penevil

[joekicker 53]

Arno, cousin, Myrrh, Upharsin and Syb are right. It would not be a good idea to print out the OP and read it to a Thai male in an attempt to deflect his anger. In fact, I doubt a printout of my OP - or anyone else's OP - would serve much use in a street confrontation in Pattaya or anywhere in the world, except maybe if you rolled it up real tight and jabbed it in your opponent's eye.

 

Along those lines, it wouldn't be a good idea to frost a cake with motor oil or to lubricate an automoble engine with cake frosting, either. The purpose of the OP was inform BMs about the legal basis of street photography, not to give tips on handling angry Thai males. Personally, I've never had a Thai male raise his eyebrows, much less confront me, over picture taking. I doubt I ever will. But if your rather fanciful situation were to occur, I'd apologize and leave as quickly as possible.

 

[Evil Penevil 7,628]

 

Thanks, Joe.

 

And on to a new point - More than one poster has maintained that picture taking on the street can put the photographer in danger of a kicking. Has anyone actually seen this happen? Has any bar owner had a customer object to another customer taking pics in your bar (assuming photography is allowed)? Has it ever led to a discussion with injuries?

 

I doubt many farang are all that sensitive about having their pictures taken, considering there are dozens of Asian and Russian package tourists who walk up and down Walking Street filming every inch of the way. There would be a hell of alot of fights each night if even a few guys objected.

 

I've never had anyone demand that I delete a photo I've just taken. In a few cases, customers in a bar have asked politely that I not include themin pictures and I've always obliged. During my most recent trip, a two guys objected to me taking pics from the street, but that wasn't hard to understand why. There's only been one case where a BM objected to a photo I had included in a T/R and that was a wind-up.

 

Bottom line; on the street or in bars where photography is permitted, there's very little hassle in taking pics. Most everyone realizes there's no expectation of privacy in such places. The exception might be Skank Alley in Bangkok.

 

Evil

Edited July 2, 2010 by Evil Penevil

[Sun Tzu 0]

As a keen photographer I was intrigued when I came across this thread.

 

The OP seems to be be coming up with all sorts of reasons why you can or cannot take or publish someone's photo with or without their permission.

 

Well, I had a quick look for any photos of him already posted in this forum and came across this.

 

 

He is the guy with the beard second from the right in the photo.

 

I will offer to lend him a shaver if I see him when he is out and about in Pattaya this week.....

[Evil Penevil 7,628]

I will offer to lend him a shaver if I see him when he is out and about in Pattaya this week.....

 

I doubt you're in Pattaya right now, but if you are, feel free to offer me a shaver. Why not do it in FLB, in front of the Web cam? Just message me and I'll be sure to stop by at a time that is convenient for you.

 

And if you see the guy in the photo below, tell him some people are looking for him.

 

Evil

 

[jo_basic 1]

wow high heeled bowling shoes

[chuckrivera 1]

Sounds like the art of war to me...