legal advice on family law needed

[hybrid 1]

Hi There.

hoping you all can help me as after visiting nearly 10 Thai international law firms in pattaya I'm still no nearer to an answer.

 

I have relocated to pattaya, I live in a lovely 3 bedroomed bungalow with private swimming pool have my own new car.

I still own my home in the UK, however its rented out long term giving me a reasonable base income. no car in the UK or anything , sold everything other than the house

so if all in LOS fails I still have a roof to go back to if need be , although I'd have to wait for my tenants to leave before I could have my own house to live in.

I was married in the UK, but divorced some 4 years ago.

I have a 8 (nearly 9) year old son in the UK who WAS living with his mother.

His mother has long term psychiatric problems and my son has been removed from her and given to me, however my (elderly) mother in the UK is looking after him at the moment while I sort things out over here in LOS.

I have got him into a nice international school over here ready for when he comes.

 

now my dilemma .

the UK courts to approve his move to Thailand as a permanent removal from there jurisdiction want to firm up the contact arrangements for him and his mother . these being 4 visits per year, funded 50/50 my myself and his mother for her to come and visit Thailand (wow ! half price holiday for her :)

so they wish to make a contact order along with my residence order . sounds easy doesn't it ! LOL

now they are going on about either wanting to register or mirror said contact order in the Thai judicial system as of course they are worried as Thailand is not a signatory of the Hague convention regarding children and his mother is worried one he gets here she could never see him again.

my problem is I've been to visit 10 Thai international law firms so far this week and had lengthy appointments. the result being in all cases they say a UK contact order cannot be registered or mirrored in Thailand unless there is a half Thai element involved . of course we're all farang !

so is this right or as I suspect the advise I'm had so far is because its just not been done by these companies before .

the way my UK lawyer is explaining it is that there half right. the order cannot be registered or mirrored against my will, i.e. if I had abducted him and brought him here the UK contact order does not matter , but beware if I ever go back to the UK as I'd get arrested for child abduction !. so the way it it done is the order is registered or mirrored with all parties approval before the act. so enabling enforcement should I decide to give his mother a 2 finger salute.

 

Now OK . I'd prefer no order, and I'd love to give her a 2 finger salute !. but its not a matter of that . its a matter of its only fair for son & mother to see each other. and she and the court want this order over here to make sure all goes well . and also no order could well mean no permsion to relocate him

 

so my options .

get the order. (well, just find out how and tell the UK lawyers team to do it)

allow my son to go into care as my mother cannot look after him forever as she's too old ! (not an option really is it !)

give up on los, and go back to England , sign on the dole, hope my tenants move out and suffer .

or if its right that no order or anything alike can be done, show evidence that it cannot be done and offer surety to the courts in some manner .

 

oh and before I forget my mother in the UK who is looking after my son is also wanting to relocate here ! (not sure if that good for me or not but it will cure here arthritis & rheumatism I'm sure)

suggestions on a postcard please

or really i just need a good lawyer here in pattaya who knows the law and can give me a letter (will pay !!!) stating yes or no and why & how

[volsfan 43]

Have you tried Tony at Magna Carta?

[bibzo 7]

You could offer the house in the UK to the court as security of compliance

[BigDUSA 71]

I would pay for two legal opinions from the Thai law firms and bring this before the UK court. I would be willing to set up a fully funded bank account that would be administered by the court to pay for her travel. This may be enough for the court to approve his permanent removal. What does your former spouse think of this? I would think if she doesn't oppose what you want to do................................

 

Good luck with all this.

[hillbilly 81]

:bigsmile:sorry about your troubles but mybe the embassies have a list of trusted lawyers that could advice

[tom21 19]

i would say to advice the court that you can not afford to pay for the childs mother to visit him in thailand and as your mother is relocating to thailand the child is to come with you or is to be put in care. i think a lot of your problems is coming from your ex wife and the courts will take the easy way out.

 

you can always bring him out for a holiday and not take him back.

[jacko 8,827]

i would say to advice the court that you can not afford to pay for the childs mother to visit him in thailand and as your mother is relocating to thailand the child is to come with you or is to be put in care. i think a lot of your problems is coming from your ex wife and the courts will take the easy way out.

 

you can always bring him out for a holiday and not take him back.

And boy would they have a field day with that!

 

OP...This is the most complex question I have seen here and I am afraid I can be of no help. I hope you have thought long and hard deciding that relocating your son to LOS is the best decision. Good luck.

Edited February 17, 2008 by jacko

[rolyshark 0]

You have UK representation,so it's not applicable to advise you specifically.

Your solicitors will be able to remind the Court,with or without Counsel's opinion,of their powers, It appears that the no order principal should apply if you have agreed residence and contact and merely a specific issue application made to deal with removal from juristiction. Unless of course,the local authority has intervened and made an application for an interim care order or a guardian has been appointed for the child.

 

In terms of enforcement,if an order were breached by you,your ex would have to apply afresh through the thai courts and whilst the order has no binding effect,it is clearly corroborative evidence of her case and could be relied on. In practical terms you can ensure contact is facilitated to the best of your ability by,say,depositing sufficient funds to cover the first 12 months visits in a bank account in the joint names of your and your ex's solicitors and provide a suitable undertaking to the court.

 

However,as you will have been told,the welfare of the child is paramount.

It would be a simple matter for you to evict your tenants in UK and return. You would be eligible, on your own account to benefits,which would include child benefit and child tax credit so would be able to manage financially.

[hybrid 1]

You have UK representation,so it's not applicable to advise you specifically.

Your solicitors will be able to remind the Court,with or without Counsel's opinion,of their powers, It appears that the no order principal should apply if you have agreed residence and contact and merely a specific issue application made to deal with removal from juristiction. Unless of course,the local authority has intervened and made an application for an interim care order or a guardian has been appointed for the child.

 

In terms of enforcement,if an order were breached by you,your ex would have to apply afresh through the thai courts and whilst the order has no binding effect,it is clearly corroborative evidence of her case and could be relied on. In practical terms you can ensure contact is facilitated to the best of your ability by,say,depositing sufficient funds to cover the first 12 months visits in a bank account in the joint names of your and your ex's solicitors and provide a suitable undertaking to the court.

 

However,as you will have been told,the welfare of the child is paramount.

It would be a simple matter for you to evict your tenants in UK and return. You would be eligible, on your own account to benefits,which would include child benefit and child tax credit so would be able to manage financially.

 

 

ah .. someone who appears to know the score.

i won't go into great detail .

but can;t evict tenants as there on gaurneteed tenancies

my case for removal is very strong. now although i've only asked for it for 12/15 months which is the lenth of a class B/ Class O / Class Ed multi entry visa my laywer is content with applying for a permanant removal order so as not to land us back in court in 12/15 months if we decide to stay for good.

 

the issue is not the other orders . but specficly the question of can a UK contact order be mirrored or registered in a thai court.

Edited February 18, 2008 by hybrid

[Eneukman 1]

:bigsmile:sorry about your troubles but mybe the embassies have a list of trusted lawyers that could advice

 

A good suggestion but unfortunately, in my experience of trying to find solicitors in the UK qualified in the law of a certain country, embassies will not recommend a specific legal firm. All they will do is to send you a list of solicitors in a specific area and it's then up to you.

 

Edit in

 

One thought I've just had. Rather than trying to find an appropriate solicitor in Thailand, try asking the Thai Embassy in London (or getting your solicitor to ask) for a list of solicitors qualified in Thai Law operating in London. They will be more likely to have knowledge of both English and Thai law. There will probably be quite a few to choose from.

 

Alan

Edited February 17, 2008 by Eneukman

[rolyshark 0]

specficly the question of can a UK contact order be mirrored or registered in a thai court.

No.

[hybrid 1]

No.

Rolyshark .

you seem very sure .

are you a lawyer or do you work in childcare ? can you PM me any more info ?

if the order cannot be mirrored or registered then i'm happy with that, the issue is if it can be then i need to find a lawyer to do it. if it can't (which is the info i get from you and pattaya lawyers) then i only need to get a letter from a lawyer here in thailand saying it cannot be done.

 

i think at this stage my lawyer is pre-empting the question from the court or the x's lawyers with regards to this/

a snipped from the last email from my UK lawyer where after i tell them it cannot be done.

 

"Still need a letter from the lawyers confirming what orders if any or

procedures if any that can protect x-wifes contact by the Thai legal

system And this needs to be translated and notarised if in thai"

[js007 795]

Seems like you're getting some good advice here.

 

Still, off the top of my head. See if there isn't some treaty in effect that would apply to family law situations. If both England and Thailand have signed off on some treaty requiring recognition of certain foreign court orders pertaining to divorce and child custody, that may be an option.

 

J

[hybrid 1]

Seems like you're getting some good advice here.

 

Still, off the top of my head. See if there isn't some treaty in effect that would apply to family law situations. If both England and Thailand have signed off on some treaty requiring recognition of certain foreign court orders pertaining to divorce and child custody, that may be an option.

 

J

 

from what i can there is no treaty . it would be the hague convention that covers it , but thailand is not a signatory

[rolyshark 0]

Rolyshark .

you seem very sure .

are you a lawyer

Yes.

 

Your solicitors are obviously asking you to do the leg work for them. It is something they could do by simply instructing thai solicitors,or indeed by their own department if so qualified.However, you would pick up the fee. They may merely be giving you to option to do it yourself to save a few quid. In the event it cannot be done,there is little point having an order,ergo the no order principal applies and you can resolve certain practicalities to facilitate contact to mother between yourselves.