Thai Airways -Bankruptcy

[jacko 8,815]

5 hours ago, tombon said:

You should check with your thai CCC they might have similar rules. 

Then again as your flight been cancelled?

It was not cancelled, the outwards went on schedule, but a week or so prior they moved my return booking by a day. There was no way to cancel on-line, and I certainly was not joining the long unhealthy and risky queue at their office in town. 

The Credit Cards don't seem to work the same here, had zero feedback on a past issue, so really don't waste my time. Non-refundable means non-refundable this time!

Edited May 20, 2020 by jacko

[Brown1950 67]

On 5/19/2020 at 11:22 PM, midlifecrisis said:

I'll ask again

92 billion baht which is almost 2.9 billion dollars; over 2.35 billion pounds in debt

They lost 275 million dollars in 2018. 

Who will help them?  Why isn't this company's assets sold off to pay creditors and to cut further losses? Creditors will only see something if Thai Airways folds. Nobody will get back what they put into it.

 

The term 'bankruptcy' is misleading. It looks like the intention is to enter in to a period of 'rehabilitation' - a process similar to 'administration' i.n the UK or 'Chapter 11 Bankruptcy' in the USA. The rules for this type of procedure fall under the insolvency laws, hence why the term bankruptcy is often used .

The term doesn't mean the company has gone bust, 'administration' (or 'rehabilitation' or 'Chapter 11') is legal process that grants a company temporary protection from its creditors when it finds itself in financial difficulty to allow the company time to reorganise itself in an attempt to resolve its debt and/or cash flow problems.

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

14 hours ago, Brown1950 said:

The term 'bankruptcy' is misleading. It looks like the intention is to enter in to a period of 'rehabilitation' - a process similar to 'administration' i.n the UK or 'Chapter 11 Bankruptcy' in the USA. The rules for this type of procedure fall under the insolvency laws, hence why the term bankruptcy is often used .

The term doesn't mean the company has gone bust, 'administration' (or 'rehabilitation' or 'Chapter 11') is legal process that grants a company temporary protection from its creditors when it finds itself in financial difficulty to allow the company time to reorganise itself in an attempt to resolve its debt and/or cash flow problems.

If you read the post I made prior, I actually used restructure as the type of bankruptcy. In the USA we have two main newsworthy types, Chapter 11 and Chapter 13. In the USA we call them bankruptcy laws and not insolvency laws.

I understand the difference and you are not answering my question.

awesum4 made a good point above, "Who would buy their assets at this time?  There are thousands of planes sitting empty all over the world."

My point is, they have huge debt and continue to incur large losses. Why would any creditor want to help them restructure? The way TA operates, it does not appear that restructuring debt will be a long term benefit. It seems to postpone the inevitable.

This is the first of many airlines that will be filing for "bankruptcy" before things get back to normal.

 

[jacko 8,815]

This discussion of USA bankruptcy procedures may be off topic here.....

This is Thailand, they do things their own way. I was chatting on the phone with a neighbour about this last night , but am unable to confirm what he was telling me from another source, here is one summary I found.

With disastrous future forecasts looming there is an urgency for the government to distance itself from the airline, it is after-all the airline’s financial backer of last resort. They cannot be happy with this year’s projected losses for the first six months of a catastrophic ฿18 billion.
The airline faced a cash crisis this month and had to conserve cash flow in order to meet its payroll commitments

https://www.traveldailymedia.com/thai-government-divest-share-in-thai-airways/

 

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

44 minutes ago, jacko said:

This discussion of USA bankruptcy procedures may be off topic here.....

This is Thailand, they do things their own way. I was chatting on the phone with a neighbour about this last night , but am unable to confirm what he was telling me from another source, here is one summary I found.

With disastrous future forecasts looming there is an urgency for the government to distance itself from the airline, it is after-all the airline’s financial backer of last resort. They cannot be happy with this year’s projected losses for the first six months of a catastrophic ฿18 billion.
The airline faced a cash crisis this month and had to conserve cash flow in order to meet its payroll commitments

https://www.traveldailymedia.com/thai-government-divest-share-in-thai-airways/

 

Actually others jumped on my actual question about Thai Air which was based on your pointing out their debt. I then found statistics of a recent yearly loss, the last I could find, and I am trying to understand how it works in Thailand.

Your link is helpful to that end. Thank you!

[MrMango 671]

On 5/19/2020 at 11:42 PM, awesum4 said:

Who would buy their assets at this time?  There are thousands of planes sitting empty all over the world. 

I'm waiting for the price of campervans to drop, there are thousands of them parked up as there are no tourists. The same goes for rental cars.  Planes are no different. 

I cant see why anyone would buy a brand new car or plane at the moment. Manufacturers of both cars and planes must be extremely worried.

Of course there is a huge difference between commercial aircraft and automobiles. Air traffic and rental car traffic is down - Maybe 90% but the number of rental cars vs. the number of cars on the road is maybe 5%.

 

[MrMango 671]

12 hours ago, midlifecrisis said:

If you read the post I made prior, I actually used restructure as the type of bankruptcy. In the USA we have two main newsworthy types, Chapter 11 and Chapter 13. In the USA we call them bankruptcy laws and not insolvency laws.

I understand the difference and you are not answering my question.

awesum4 made a good point above, "Who would buy their assets at this time?  There are thousands of planes sitting empty all over the world."

My point is, they have huge debt and continue to incur large losses. Why would any creditor want to help them restructure? The way TA operates, it does not appear that restructuring debt will be a long term benefit. It seems to postpone the inevitable.

This is the first of many airlines that will be filing for "bankruptcy" before things get back to normal.

 

Actually the US has several chapters in Bankruptcy - The main ones are chapter 7, chapter 11 and chapter 13. There is also a few others the address railroads, etc. but lets ignore them for the moment. 

Chapter 7 is where a debtor locks the doors and gives the keys to a judge, who oversees the liquidation of all of the unsecured assets. 

Chapter 11 lets a debtor continue to run the business under the courts protection from creditors seizing assets etc.

Chapter 13 is for individual citizens, allowing them to submit to the court a repayment plan to orderly repay creditors. This chapter is not germane to this discussion.

[jacko 8,815]

Bangkok Post Today on this.

[awesum4 2,333]

1 hour ago, MrMango said:

Of course there is a huge difference between commercial aircraft and automobiles. Air traffic and rental car traffic is down - Maybe 90% but the number of rental cars vs. the number of cars on the road is maybe 5%.

 

We used to get 3,600,000 tourists a year, about half of those hired a rental car or campervan. So there are probably 70,000 of those sitting idle for the next year at least.

With those companies having little to no income they will be looking for ways to get cash. Prices will drop dramatically over the next few months.

Rents in tourist destinations are already dropping by up to 40% and they will drop further 

[MrMango 671]

2 hours ago, awesum4 said:

We used to get 3,600,000 tourists a year, about half of those hired a rental car or campervan. So there are probably 70,000 of those sitting idle for the next year at least.

With those companies having little to no income they will be looking for ways to get cash. Prices will drop dramatically over the next few months.

Rents in tourist destinations are already dropping by up to 40% and they will drop further 

I did the math, if the average rental is 1 week, then that makes the number of cars at about 38,000. If we assume that the rental companys decrease their fleet by 50% then the excess number of cars would be 19,000.

I just checked and the latest figures I could find from 2015 was there were 3,858,000 so an extra 19,000 is not going to impact the market that much.

[jacko 8,815]

3 hours ago, awesum4 said:

We used to get 3,600,000 tourists a year, about half of those hired a rental car or campervan. So there are probably 70,000 of those sitting idle for the next year at least.

With those companies having little to no income they will be looking for ways to get cash. Prices will drop dramatically over the next few months.

Rents in tourist destinations are already dropping by up to 40% and they will drop further 

What has this got to do with Thai International going belly up?

[awesum4 2,333]

2 hours ago, jacko said:

What has this got to do with Thai International going belly up?

Nothing anymore....it has evolved over the last few days......so I agree it is time to return to Thai International.

I enjoyed the two flights I had on Thai. It's a sad thing to happen.

 

[Butch 3,456]

Oddly, TG917 flew LHR-BKK last night.

[Brown1950 67]

54 minutes ago, Butch said:

Oddly, TG917 flew LHR-BKK last night.

Repatriation flight i believe.