Financial crisis

[OnMyWay 0]

Rule 5 of the forum rules:

A statement such as the above is a violation of that rule. And, there is just no reason to spew that kind of generalized hatred of entire nations on this board. Since you were at 75% warning level before, this will take you to 100%, so you are hereby suspended.

 

You can read this reply in 2039, the next time you'll be able to access the board.

 

Cheers Martin! Well done...

[lv2play 0]

QUOTE(MM @ Mar 17 2008, 07:50 PM)

 

Rule 5 of the forum rules:

A statement such as the above is a violation of that rule. And, there is just no reason to spew that kind of generalized hatred of entire nations on this board. Since you were at 75% warning level before, this will take you to 100%, so you are hereby suspended.

 

You can read this reply in 2039, the next time you'll be able to access the board.

 

Thanx Martin for keeping the rif raf of your property

[otherway 5]

Rule 5 of the forum rules:

A statement such as the above is a violation of that rule. And, there is just no reason to spew that kind of generalized hatred of entire nations on this board. Since you were at 75% warning level before, this will take you to 100%, so you are hereby suspended.

 

You can read this reply in 2039, the next time you'll be able to access the board.

 

 

You were certainly right to ban such a sick twisted bastard.

 

But I hope it doesnt apply anyone else on 100% warning level.

 

I mean. I love America (apart from them eating with the fork in the wrong hand and wearing silly shirts).

 

I love Isreal too ever since they smashed the Arabs in the 6 day war.

Laughed ? I could have shit myself.

Edited March 17, 2008 by otherway

[Owen` 2]

There is almost never anything new under the sun. The US stock markets are down about 18% from their high of October. In the great crash of 2000, the US NASDAQ lost about 50% and then another 20% over the next two years. The S&P measure lost about 48% from 2000 to 2002. There was a recession of GDP growth that lasted several months. The costs of 9/11 and people unwilling to fly and expenditures on security aggravated it, but in the end there were tax cuts and "rebates' and the normal cycle of economic activities and . . . growth boomed in 2003, and 2004, and 2005, and 2006 and started to erode only last year.

 

The current decline is generating headlines, but numerically it is nothing particularly special. The US stock markets have been up for 5 years in a row as of Dec 31, 2007. This year, maybe not. Or maybe so. No one knows.

 

The only thing that is "new" in this context is the world is indeed running out of oil. Waving a hand and saying "there will be other energy sources" is somewhat glib. If they existed and were superior to oil, they would be dominant. Nothing good will come from the upheaval of oil depletion, and it will affect everyone everywhere.

 

But in terms of the US economy and financial structure . . . there have been times of crisis before and there will be times of crisis again. The market will be down about 20% since October probably at the end of trading today. This is a somewhat mild decline historically in comparison to some of the big declines of history.

 

The latest 2002-2003 style Bush stimulus of $600 per household will arrive in a few months. Expect to see results from that later this year.

[lv2play 0]

The latest 2002-2003 style Bush stimulus of $600 per household will arrive in a few months. Expect to see results from that later this year.

 

Don,t bet on it,maybe interesting for the local market and to pay off debts.

Doesn,t impress anyone outside the USA.

[Rhoel 2]

The latest 2002-2003 style Bush stimulus of $600 per household will arrive in a few months. Expect to see results from that later this year.

 

The crisis is now ... a boost to the economy months down the line is like saying to passengers of a plane out of fuel the landing conditions at the original destination are perfect.

 

The question is if the the US economy can stave off a full depression.

 

Rhoel

[BigDUSA 71]

The question is if the the US economy can stave off a full depression.

 

Rhoel

 

If we can't the rest of the world is in for one helluva ride. Personally, I think were in for a severe recession maybe last 18 months then we pull out of it slowly.

[BigusDicus 9,883]

With a Democrat in office, I think we can look forward to higher taxes on the wealthy and a fairly quick slowdown in war spending. If all that happens, the dollar may stabilize.

 

When is the last time anybody's taxes went down because of the democrats? You really think they will only raise taxes on the rich and not you too?

 

For the sake of argument lets ignore how raising taxes slows the economy thus reducing the government revenue. Lets not even think about how if you tax the rich too much they move significant portions of their monies offshore to avoid those taxes resulting in less tax revenues. Forget about all that.

 

Lets focus on the democrats. Both Clinton and Obama say they would like to implement universal healthcare. It is a mojor part of both's campaign. The costs would be tremendous. EXTRAORDINARY! It would make the Iraq War expenditures looks like small baht coins.

 

Currently the US is headed for a train wreck with our existing entitlement programs. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and others currently consume over half our annual budget and are rising fast. We are struggling to find ways to pay for these programs in the future without raising taxes too much.

 

And the democrats want to add another program that will consume huge amounts of revenue.

 

You really think only the rich will pay more taxes and not you?

 

 

 

All bets are off if McCain somehow wins. He'll continue to support a funding of the war machine and the crazy policy of deficit spending out the wazoo. Republicans = national bankruptcy.

 

 

If the democrats are elected they will not draw our forces down any faster than the rebublicans. Its just election hype.

[js007 795]

As for the Democrats and health care? First, I'm not so sure they could pull off any major change, regardless of what they say now. Too many people have a vested interest in the current system. Secondly, I do believe that whatever they do they'll figure out some way to pay for it. Third, we're all paying now anyway, to a certain extent, for all the people that don't have healthcare. It might actually be cheaper in the long run to set up a plan for those willing to participate that would cover routine health maintenance. In other words, keep the people healthy in the first place. As it is now, they show up in emergency rooms and receive treatment, often when their medical problems have progressed to the point of being serious.

 

As for taxes? Go ask Warren Buffet. Even he'll tell you that it's not fair that he pays less tax, as a percentage of his income, than his secretary.

 

J

[otherway 5]

The crisis is now ... a boost to the economy months down the line is like saying to passengers of a plane out of fuel the landing conditions at the original destination are perfect.

 

The question is if the the US economy can stave off a full depression.

 

Rhoel

 

 

Its not a question of a depression its a recession.

 

No chance of a real depression in the US. The world would fall apart.

 

The reality is the USA still is by far the most influential country in the world. Those who politically want to ignore this influence just have decide how much suffering and poverty their people will accept.

 

Because its the USA that calls the shots and will for the foreseeable future recession or no recession.

 

The US consumer is responsible for 20% of the worlds spending.

 

One country = 20% of all the worlds spending power.

If it stops spending the shit hits the fan.

 

Any currency that gains on the back of wankers panicking over the pressure on the dollar will lose big time in the end (Europhiles take note).

 

The Euro is so high that soon they wont be able to sell fuck all to anyone at cost. Especially to 20% of the worlds spenders ie. Americans.

 

The £ is well over $2 dollars now. Its still great for our exports to Europe.

Not that I would sell them anything after the Germans bombed our chip shop and broke all our window.

 

Its not a matter of politics in the USA. Its not the war in Iraq (such as it is). Its all a matter of economics and the room for maneuver by any US political policy is limited.

 

Pulling troops out and global warming are bollocks.

The former is inevitable its a matter of how flimsy the excuse and the benefits and costs are human not financial.

The latter is just a way of raising revenue.

 

The greatest influence is economical balance and corporate greed. That's what causes these peaks and troughs. Its the nature of free economies.

 

Defence spending is actually beneficial in many ways. Its lack of spending and lack of credit that causes recession.

 

 

Its inevitable that these issues will be used to make political points but reality is that if you stop these fluctuations you have to change everything and its not going to happen as more control means less freedom.

 

Those that want freedom should win the day.

[BigusDicus 9,883]

As for the Democrats and health care? First, I'm not so sure they could pull off any major change, regardless of what they say now.

 

I sure hope you are right!

 

 

Secondly, I do believe that whatever they do they'll figure out some way to pay for it.

 

Yes they will raise our taxes. Yours and mine.

 

 

Third, we're all paying now anyway, to a certain extent, for all the people that don't have healthcare. It might actually be cheaper in the long run to set up a plan for those willing to participate that would cover routine health maintenance. In other words, keep the people healthy in the first place. As it is now, they show up in emergency rooms and receive treatment, often when their medical problems have progressed to the point of being serious.

 

Hum, the problem with this reasoning is it overlooks the fact that historically, .85 cents of every dollar spent on entitlement programs goes towards administrative costs and overhead.

 

As for taxes? Go ask Warren Buffet. Even he'll tell you that it's not fair that he pays less tax, as a percentage of his income, than his secretary.

 

Hey, for every billionaire you show me who says he doesn't pay enough taxes I will show you 10 who say they pay too much.

[joekicker 53]

All bets are off if McCain somehow wins. He'll continue to support a funding of the war machine and the crazy policy of deficit spending out the wazoo. Republicans = national bankruptcy.

 

Whereas the Democrats will end the war like the last time they ended a war in, um.... remind me again when and how that happened?

 

Your faith is touching but the Democrats really have no choice about "the war machine" and funding it. The only choice is WHERE to fund it and neither of them has the guts to pull out of Iraq, when it comes down to it. But the funding of the war machine will increase under a Democrat president.

 

 

With a Democrat in office, I think we can look forward to higher taxes on the wealthy and a fairly quick slowdown in war spending. If all that happens, the dollar may stabilize.

 

Well, I suppose that's one way to state it. According to the programmes and promises of the two leading Democrat politicians, you can look forward to higher taxes, period. YOU can look forward to it, for example. That's their promise, that YOU will pay more.

 

 

As for the Democrats and health care? First, I'm not so sure they could pull off any major change, regardless of what they say now. Too many people have a vested interest in the current system. Secondly, I do believe that whatever they do they'll figure out some way to pay for it.

 

??? There is no such thing as "some way," but only one way. It's not like the government has money and makes money and can decide what to do. There is only ONE WAY that governments get money. There is only ONE WAY to get more in a short time. No one has to "figure out" anything. IF there is an additional entitlement programme like health care, THEN tax-collection will increase.

 

Even geeks understand binary choices and IF... THEN.

[js007 795]

How to pay for healthcare? Well, maybe they could cut out some of the corporate welfare? Maybe cut off the war spending? Maybe cut cut some of the other domestic programs? How much do they pay to millionaire farmers for no good reason? I could go on, but you have to agree, they waste a lot of money on nonsense.

[BigusDicus 9,883]

How to pay for healthcare? Well, maybe they could cut out some of the corporate welfare? Maybe cut off the war spending? Maybe cut cut some of the other domestic programs? How much do they pay to millionaire farmers for no good reason? I could go on, but you have to agree, they waste a lot of money on nonsense.

 

I certainly do agree they do spend a lot of money on nonsense.

 

Corporate welfare? There certainly is some. In the overall scheme of things very little.

 

War spending. While significant, once again just not that much. And the "return" (on investment) we receive is not just good, it is necessary.

 

I am curious: Just what "other domestic programs" might we cut in your opinion?

 

J, your ideas and aspirations are admirable. Emotional, heartfelt. I wish they could work. I do not believe they can though.

 

PS. Agreed it is hard to feel sorry for the farmers anymore. It is primarily the large "corporate farmers" who benefit most from subsidies.

[js007 795]

I'm sure if I had a copy of the federal budget and a red pen I could redline some programs and expenses. I don't really keep up on it though, but from what I do know, a lot of money is wasted.

 

Take the farm programs, for example. A few weeks ago I was looking into it for my brother, who owns a bunch of land. Some of the land he rents out to a farmer, and some of it borders a waterway and is basically a wooded floodplain. Anyway, there seems to be a government program for just about everything. For his floodplain, there's some sort of a "save the wetlands" program. They make you promise to keep it as it is, and in return they give you some absurd amount, per acre per year. Of course, that's what would happen anyway, but why not take the money? Ditto for the farm ground. They'll actually pay you NOT to farm anything.

 

That's just one example, but you get the picture, I'm sure.

 

j

[zaphodbeeblebrox 0]

Whether we pull out of Iraq tomorrow or not, the military is now in shambles (although very experienced in insurgency warfare) and it is estimated that it will cost $2 trillion and take 10 years to recover from the depletion caused by the war in Iraq.

 

And as for healthcare costs, the argument about entitlement programs is equally applicable to the private sector. The great bulk of healthcare costs go to administrative expenses both in insurance companies and in hospitals and medical clinics.

[RWB 0]

I grew up in farm country, back in the 60's we grew more rice here than anywhere else. Now I don't think we have 10 rice farmers left. On top of that even if rice farming once again became profitable, the land is gone. Most of it is now developed, and the poor idiots can't understand why the water gets so high in their neighborhood, ugh duh you built in a rice paddy dummy. Some land has been reclaimed by the marshlands also once it hasn't been farmed for a few years the federal gov't won't let it be farmed again.

 

This area is one of few in USA that is really booming, we live and die here by oil, esp now that farming is gone. No morgage failures here, just more and more building. The refineries are expanding and hiring hiring hiring, unfortunately many are not americans, seems that most american workers want just a bit more of a living wage. They will just have to learn to live just a bit more frugally now won't they. Just shut up and do what the nice guys in management tell you, oh yea forget that retirement, health care, and don't mention the bad bad word, union.

 

We owe China how much now, they own us, our manufacturing base is going going gone, our oil industry is owned by foreign investors, not americans, our jobs are being outsourced faster than you can blink your eye, the gov't outsourced a tanker for our air force to a subsidized foreign company(not the only outsourcing for our military), asshole bill gates wants more cheap foreign labor, and in general the american worker has forgotten why labor unions were so important.

 

If you think things are bad now, wait until oil changes to the euro. We will be ridding Honda Waves to work here.

 

The mccain/repungent health care plan calls for the end of tax benefits for employers and employees for employer furnished health care, one may and I do mean may, get a bit more take home pay afterwards and that is supposed to enable everyone to go out an buy their own. Give me a fucking break!

 

How much does that fucking war cost? Tell me again that it doesn't make any difference in the economy, how much fuel alone does it burn up? we are being ripped off left and right by kbr etc with the blessing and best wishes of the traitors in DC. to hell with that, what is the long term human cost?

 

We can't grow our own food, manufacture our own products, build our own computers, or do our own work. But we can still pay out the ass for foreign oil, at least for today.

 

Excuse me, the demo congress has nothing to do with all this, it has been coming for about 7 years now. This has all happened on the shrub regime's watch. The repungents don't give a damn about anything but money, more money, power and more power.

 

Oh yea, I'm pissed at the demo's also, just not because of the economy, because they haven't done their constitutional duty and brought criminal charges against the shrub/rove/chenny regime.

 

Damn, that felt good! This being sober crap is rough sometimes, but my liver thanks me (I hope).

[dontcha 53]

I grew up in farm country, back in the 60's we grew more rice here than anywhere else. Now I don't think we have 10 rice farmers left. On top of that even if rice farming once again became profitable, the land is gone. Most of it is now developed, and the poor idiots can't understand why the water gets so high in their neighborhood, ugh duh you built in a rice paddy dummy. Some land has been reclaimed by the marshlands also once it hasn't been farmed for a few years the federal gov't won't let it be farmed again.

 

This area is one of few in USA that is really booming, we live and die here by oil, esp now that farming is gone. No morgage failures here, just more and more building. The refineries are expanding and hiring hiring hiring, unfortunately many are not americans, seems that most american workers want just a bit more of a living wage. They will just have to learn to live just a bit more frugally now won't they. Just shut up and do what the nice guys in management tell you, oh yea forget that retirement, health care, and don't mention the bad bad word, union.

 

We owe China how much now, they own us, our manufacturing base is going going gone, our oil industry is owned by foreign investors, not americans, our jobs are being outsourced faster than you can blink your eye, the gov't outsourced a tanker for our air force to a subsidized foreign company(not the only outsourcing for our military), asshole bill gates wants more cheap foreign labor, and in general the american worker has forgotten why labor unions were so important.

 

If you think things are bad now, wait until oil changes to the euro. We will be ridding Honda Waves to work here.

 

The mccain/repungent health care plan calls for the end of tax benefits for employers and employees for employer furnished health care, one may and I do mean may, get a bit more take home pay afterwards and that is supposed to enable everyone to go out an buy their own. Give me a fucking break!

 

How much does that fucking war cost? Tell me again that it doesn't make any difference in the economy, how much fuel alone does it burn up? we are being ripped off left and right by kbr etc with the blessing and best wishes of the traitors in DC. to hell with that, what is the long term human cost?

 

We can't grow our own food, manufacture our own products, build our own computers, or do our own work. But we can still pay out the ass for foreign oil, at least for today.

 

Excuse me, the demo congress has nothing to do with all this, it has been coming for about 7 years now. This has all happened on the shrub regime's watch. The repungents don't give a damn about anything but money, more money, power and more power.

 

Oh yea, I'm pissed at the demo's also, just not because of the economy, because they haven't done their constitutional duty and brought criminal charges against the shrub/rove/chenny regime.

 

Damn, that felt good! This being sober crap is rough sometimes, but my liver thanks me (I hope).

Well said sir,your post proves that touristman was very wrong, America is full of good sensible people ... all you need to do now is take your country back.

[tko 219]

Don't forget the role of the Federal Reserve, which is supposed to independently manage the country's monetary supply. BTW, didn't you hear that Bush and Hank Paulson met with Bernanke today, before tomorrow's announcement of a major rate cut? So much for the independent Federal Reserve and Bush's innocence with respect to the faltering economy.

 

Actually, if you'll re read my post, I did mention the Fed's role, in an edit several hours before your response. In addition, while the Fed has an independant decision making role, that does not mean that they are in an ivory tower and should not consult with elected officials. After all, the Fed chief is appointed by the President and approved by the Senate.

 

In any case, for a change, they chose to be conservative today. Good.

[tko 219]

Excuse me, the demo congress has nothing to do with all this, it has been coming for about 7 years now. This has all happened on the shrub regime's watch. The repungents don't give a damn about anything but money, more money, power and more power.

No of course not. Power for 1.5 years, and nothing is their fault. It never is. Even though it didn't happen for the FIVE years that a responsive Congress was available to the President. It must have been the MAN, man.

 

Oh yea, I'm pissed at the demo's also, just not because of the economy, because they haven't done their constitutional duty and brought criminal charges against the shrub/rove/chenny regime.

The reason there haven't been any criminal charge is that: No crime has been commited. You just disagree with his policies. BTW: I'm pretty pissed at the current President, too. He's way too liberal (Democrat) in his spending policies for me.

 

Damn, that felt good! This being sober crap is rough sometimes, but my liver thanks me (I hope).

I imagine I'd consider you more lucid when drunk.

[BigusDicus 9,883]

BTW: I'm pretty pissed at the current President, too. He's way too liberal (Democrat) in his spending policies for me.

 

He has been spending money like a drunken democrat!

[RWB 0]

tko, somehow I bet you get all your news from faux news, rush limbaugh, and billo. If you can't see the crimes that have been committed you have a problem with law, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and criminal procedures. You, sir are part of the problem, not the solution. The shrub regime all belong in Git Moe or one of their secret CIA prisons. A little waterboarding each day for the rest of their miserable lives would be most appropriate.

 

Amen, BigusDiscus, Amen

Edited March 18, 2008 by RWB

[BigusDicus 9,883]

We owe China how much now, they own us, our manufacturing base is going going gone, our oil industry is owned by foreign investors, not americans, our jobs are being outsourced faster than you can blink your eye,

 

 

Were we not saying this about the Japanese 20 years ago?

 

 

"It's like deja vu all over again" - Yogi Berra

[MrMango 672]

You need to get your facts straight -

We can't grow our own food,

Excuse me, but we are the major exporter of food to the world - got it?

 

 

manufacture our own products, build our own computers, or do our own work.

Of course we can build our products. If China will build computers (or anything else) cheaper than we can do it in the U.S., why not let them? - All Americans are a little bit richer when we do.

 

 

But we can still pay out the ass for foreign oil, at least for today.

We have hundreds of years of energy supply int he U.S. - The trick is got the tree hugger's let us pull it out of the ground.

[BigusDicus 9,883]

But we can still pay out the ass for foreign oil, at least for today.

 

Might be better to use theirs first. Our is getting more and more expensive to get out of the ground.