Boeing 737-Max. Another one down.

[helloitsme 251]

On 3/22/2019 at 3:09 PM, TheFiend said:

After reading through that article my understanding is that the MAX is fitted with 2 Angle of Attack sensors, yet only uses one at a time.... That is very poor design from a safety point of view if a safety critical sensor goes faulty. 

I read somewhere that there was an optional extra that neither lion air or Ethiopian airways took, at 80,000$, when purchasing the aircraft.... a light that warned the pilot that the two sensors were providing different readings, presumably allowing them to make a decision as to what to do.

 

 

[TheFiend 1,181]

2 hours ago, helloitsme said:

I read somewhere that there was an optional extra that neither lion air or Ethiopian airways took, at 80,000$, when purchasing the aircraft.... a light that warned the pilot that the two sensors were providing different readings, presumably allowing them to make a decision as to what to do.

 

 

Should that be offered as an "optional extra" or should that be fitted as standard???

You would think that a critical safety system, especially for a control system which is highly important in the ascent or descent phase of a flight would have more than just one sensor and indication. It's bad design and implementation that has resulted in the loss of several lives.

I'm not an Aviation Instrument Engineer, but I am an Instrument Engineer (40  years experience in instrumentation systems) and my work involves safety critical systems.

[helloitsme 251]

7 hours ago, TheFiend said:

Should that be offered as an "optional extra" or should that be fitted as standard???

You would think that a critical safety system, especially for a control system which is highly important in the ascent or descent phase of a flight would have more than just one sensor and indication. It's bad design and implementation that has resulted in the loss of several lives.

I'm not an Aviation Instrument Engineer, but I am an Instrument Engineer (40  years experience in instrumentation systems) and my work involves safety critical systems.

Fully agree with you.

Personally, I think it should be standard, but as it appears that Boeing self certified the system as being safe, why shouldn't they charge another 80k$ for a warning light?!!!

I believe the warning is being installed as part of the "upgrade" to the software. 

Again.... only what I have read.... but imo the whole episode reeks of "we need a new plane quickly to defeat those Airbus people", and corners were cut...

Would you want to be on one of the early flights when they resume flying, even with the new software? I wouldn't...

[Gottsy 46]

I still wont fly on a Nightmareliner.

[jacko 8,814]

On 3/23/2019 at 6:54 PM, JONPAT said:

I would say the jump seat pilot had the knowledge from somewhere and that the two that crashed the plane didn't. The MCAS didn't bring down other MAX 8 planes, the pilots have to have some of the blame.

Tenuous... an automated system that can crash the plane killing all on board that requires supplementary training is a design fault. If the information being discussed is correct the MCAS can push the nose down due to faulty AOA data, that is also a design fault. When the pilot's actions are over-ridden by automated stall protection (particularly if that near stall determination can be flawed)  he is not in control of the aircraft nor being allowed to be. 

There had already been a fatal incident, and other presumably reported incidents that were handled, Boeing admitted there was a problem as they were 'working on it'. The CVR tapes need to be heard!

Edited March 24, 2019 by jacko

[nkped 1,208]

On 3/21/2019 at 2:29 PM, Bob Belzy said:

Interesting that if the point about the extra pilot is correct, it means that at least one Lion Air pilot had been trained in the MCAS.

Or was an old fart/anal retentive who used the tech manual for bed time reading and figured out how to turn off a system which might fly the aircraft instead of him.

Edited March 25, 2019 by nkped

[Bob Belzy 150]

7 hours ago, nkped said:

Or was an old fart/anal retentive who used the tech manual for bed time reading and figured out how to turn off a system which might fly the aircraft instead of him.

Glad to see we have a lateral thinker on the board.

[Gottsy 46]

I mean using Boeing's logic its like selling a car without brakes. "Oh sorry they are extra' You couldnt make it up.

[JONPAT 222]

16 hours ago, jacko said:

Tenuous... an automated system that can crash the plane killing all on board that requires supplementary training is a design fault. If the information being discussed is correct the MCAS can push the nose down due to faulty AOA data, that is also a design fault. When the pilot's actions are over-ridden by automated stall protection (particularly if that near stall determination can be flawed)  he is not in control of the aircraft nor being allowed to be. 

There had already been a fatal incident, and other presumably reported incidents that were handled, Boeing admitted there was a problem as they were 'working on it'. The CVR tapes need to be heard!

Tenuous ... at best; Hundreds of thousands of flights didn't crash. Bad design OK, worse pilots for sure. Glorified bus drivers in the sky, clueless when a situation occurred, everyone dies. If every MAX-8 that had this scenario happen then I'd agree except all the other time's the plane (pilots) didn't crash. 

You got a problematic plane, pay attention. These pilots didn't do their homework and drove their plane into the surface.

[jacko 8,814]

7 hours ago, JONPAT said:

Tenuous ... at best; Hundreds of thousands of flights didn't crash. Bad design OK, worse pilots for sure. Glorified bus drivers in the sky, clueless when a situation occurred, everyone dies. If every MAX-8 that had this scenario happen then I'd agree except all the other time's the plane (pilots) didn't crash. 

You got a problematic plane, pay attention. These pilots didn't do their homework and drove their plane into the surface.

Ridiculous, it is a relatively new aircraft, and there have been 2 total and utter wipe-outs of all passengers and crew in 370 delivered.

By your evaluation they would all still be flying, or at worst just grounded for 3rd world carriers with the inferior and lazy pilots. One or two more crashes or incidents scaring, maybe killing, passengers and crew would be the fault of those pilots not the manufacturer. I might also add that these very same pilots, who you believe need to return to school to compensate for Boeing's QC, have also flown many many other flights successfully. 

Problematic is a new way to say it. I hope more information is released as to what the pilots did try on the doomed flights. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by jacko

[Yujin 18]

8 hours ago, JONPAT said:

Tenuous ... at best; Hundreds of thousands of flights didn't crash. Bad design OK, worse pilots for sure. Glorified bus drivers in the sky, clueless when a situation occurred, everyone dies. If every MAX-8 that had this scenario happen then I'd agree except all the other time's the plane (pilots) didn't crash. 

You got a problematic plane, pay attention. These pilots didn't do their homework and drove their plane into the surface.

The co-pilot only had 200 hours of flying experience or "basically . .  . a student pilot."

https://www.businessinsider.com/ethiopian-airlines-flight-302-co-pilot-200-flight-hours-2019-3

Quote

 

. . . 200 hours of flying experience is far below the requirement to copilot a plane in countries including the US. In 2013, the FAA upped its copilot (also called first officer) qualification requirement to 1,500 hours from 250 hours, while European airlines often require at least 500 hours.

And having just 200 hours of experience is especially cumbersome when flying a massive jet like the Boeing 737 Max 8, which was the plane involved in the March 10 crash, said Ross Aimer, the CEO of the airline consulting and legal firm Aero Consulting Experts.

Aimer said the dearth of experience can be "a menace in the cockpit."

"Two-hundred hours is extremely low," Aimer told Business Insider. "In an emergency, it becomes a problem. If you have a complicated airplane and you basically put a student pilot in there, that's not a good thing. Even if the guy in the left seat has so much experience, if you have so much imbalance of experience, that can be a problem."

 

 

 

[TheFiend 1,181]

Remember the Ethiopian Airlines 787 Nightmareliner that suffered a fire at LHR..... Was that the pilots fault or Boeing poor design???

It was another poor design problem that lead to a global grounding of all the delivered aircraft......

[CalEden 360]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:15 AM, TheFiend said:

Should that be offered as an "optional extra" or should that be fitted as standard???

Boeing is making it standard now.

Edited March 26, 2019 by CalEden

[jacko 8,814]

Boeing down $40 billion as shares fall. 

22 hours ago, Yujin said:

The co-pilot only had 200 hours of flying experience or "basically . .  . a student pilot."

Its captain had more than 8,000 hours of flying experience, 

And he had only 40 seconds to figure out how to resolve the problem, thumbing through the manuals, before the aircraft goes into an unrecoverable nose dive.

Boeing pilots had less than 40 SECONDS to over-ride automated system feared to have caused two deadly 737 Max jet crashes, test simulations revealBoeing pilots had less than 40 SECONDS to over-ride automated system feared to have caused two deadly 737 Max jet crashes, test simulations reveal.

Daily Mail

Edited March 26, 2019 by jacko

[helloitsme 251]

Apparently the lion air captain tried to shut down the automated nose dive system...

https://amp.businessinsider.com/lion-air-737-max-pilots-unaware-of-3-key-steps-to-avert-crash-report-2019-3

[Gottsy 46]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/breaking-boeing-737-plane-identical-14190950

A Boeing 737 MAX 8 plane identical to the Ethiopian crash jet that killed everyone on board earlier this month has been forced into an emergency landing.

The Southwest Airlines flight crew declared an emergency on board before landing safely back in Orlando, it has emerged this evening.

There were no passengers on board at the time and the flight was heading to to Victorville, California for repositioning but returned safely to Orlando at about 2:50 p.m. (1850 GMT).

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said the flight had suffered an 'engine-related' problem.

It comes weeks after airlines around the world grounded their Boeing 737 MAX aircrafts following the Ethiopia tragedy which killed 157 people.

[wacmedia 277]

Hi,

I've got to avoid that plane on my travels.

[TheFiend 1,181]

On 3/25/2019 at 3:56 PM, JONPAT said:

Tenuous ... at best; Hundreds of thousands of flights didn't crash. Bad design OK, worse pilots for sure. Glorified bus drivers in the sky, clueless when a situation occurred, everyone dies. If every MAX-8 that had this scenario happen then I'd agree except all the other time's the plane (pilots) didn't crash. 

You got a problematic plane, pay attention. These pilots didn't do their homework and drove their plane into the surface.

Seems like the pilots followed the Boeing "procedure"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47812225 

So you can stop trying to blame the pilots - the 737MAX was badly designed!!!

 

[awesum4 2,332]

Our local news reported initial findings on the Ethiopian flight is that the pilots knew what to do, turned off the faulty system, the plane righted,  they then turned the system on again, the plane dived and crashed.

The pilots made an error and paid with their lives. 

But the system is obviously crap, should never have been put into service. Planes should have been grounded months ago. Boeing will pay millions in compensation, and lose billions in future sales.

[JONPAT 222]

4 hours ago, TheFiend said:

Seems like the pilots followed the Boeing "procedure"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47812225 

So you can stop trying to blame the pilots - the 737MAX was badly designed!!!

 

If only they had not turned the MCAS back on after they had it turned off. 

[jacko 8,814]

It seems  ironic that a system designed to prevent a stall,  (and the aircraft falling out of the sky) , falsely made that determination and caused it to dive to the ground under power. Such are the realms of design. This, following on the 787 issues with batteries that caused fires surely is a cause for worry. I would really like to know is there is some change that caused critical failings in their QC processes.

Edited April 4, 2019 by jacko

[Yujin 18]

Boeing CEO, Dennis Muilenburg, admits his company at fault (“we own it”) in connection with two plane crashes involving 737 MAX 8. And he said that his company will fix the problem.  

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Yujin

[TheFiend 1,181]

5 hours ago, JONPAT said:

If only they had not turned the MCAS back on after they had it turned off. 

They were following Boeing's procedures....

[JONPAT 222]

Boeing says "Flight crews will always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane."  The pilots had it turned off, they could have flown it to a higher altitude before reengaging the MCAS.

[Gottsy 46]

4 hours ago, JONPAT said:

Boeing says "Flight crews will always have the ability to override MCAS and manually control the airplane."  The pilots had it turned off, they could have flown it to a higher altitude before reengaging the MCAS.

Ah but hindsight is such a wonderful thing