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jacko

Boeing 737-Max. Another one down.

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1 hour ago, jacko said:

Was it NASA who failed to change units correctly on Climate Orbiter ? Oops, that was in metric?

Air Canada did the same in the infamous Gimli Glider incident. 

Quote

At the time of the incident, Canada's aviation sector was in the process of converting to the metric system. As part of this process, the new 767s being acquired by Air Canada were the first to be calibrated for metric units (litres and kilograms) instead of Imperial units (gallons and pounds). 

 

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On 3/12/2019 at 4:00 PM, js007 said:

Apparently, Australia has now grounded the planes.  Of course, the USA says they are "safe." I wouldn't count on that.  

Perhaps the way American pilots fly them they are safe. The plane has had over 41,000 flights in the USA, no problems. Might be SE Asia or Africa has different pilot training, maintenance, whatever...

 

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1 hour ago, JONPAT said:

Perhaps the way American pilots fly them they are safe. The plane has had over 41,000 flights in the USA, no problems. Might be SE Asia or Africa has different pilot training, maintenance, whatever...

 

I've seen reports of complaints from pilots in the US suggesting that the problem had occurred and the pilots were not at all happy that they had no advance warning.  I'm sure it's recoverable if the pilot does the right thing.  That's not the same as saying the plane is safe.

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2 hours ago, JONPAT said:

Perhaps the way American pilots fly them they are safe. The plane has had over 41,000 flights in the USA, no problems. Might be SE Asia or Africa has different pilot training, maintenance, whatever...

 

Boeing failed to inform the airlines about the MCAS system before the Lion Air crash....... you can't train pilots on as system if the airline isn't told about it......

 

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12 hours ago, JONPAT said:

Perhaps the way American pilots fly them they are safe. The plane has had over 41,000 flights in the USA, no problems. Might be SE Asia or Africa has different pilot training, maintenance, whatever...

 

Someone doesn't seem to agree otherwise they would not be grounded in the USA too. 

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I saw President Trump ordering them grounded yesterday.

Boeing then said they were about to ground them anyway.

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12 hours ago, Gottsy said:

Just watch this. Even the FAA is complicit.

 

That’s a very good video about Boeing’s quality control problem.  Unfortunately, Boeing continues to have problems with quality control.  Last month, the USAF stopped taking delivery of new Boeing KC-46 tankers after finding “trash, tools, nuts and bolts . . . scattered inside the aircraft.”     You would think that someone from Boeing would have walked through the KC-46 before delivery with a checklist to make sure the inside was vacuumed, windshields clean, tires filled with air, etc. (like at your local car dealership).  This shows the "I don't give a damn" attitude of Boeing.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/03/14/air-force-keep-close-eye-boeing-kc-46-deliveries-resume.html

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1 hour ago, Yujin said:

like at your local car dealership

Well, maybe not for all of us living in Thailand. 

Got mine back a bit 'sloppy' a few times.

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Boeing executives and technical experts briefed pilots at U.S. airlines that fly the Max in November about the plane, less than a month after the Lion Air crash. They mentioned changes in the flight-control software, indicating that Boeing was already at work on a solution.

Boeing aimed to finish the work in April. Boeing has declined to say whether the Ethiopian Airlines crash gave new urgency to finish the work, but experts have said that is a safe bet.

Engineers had to find out what the system was doing on the Lion Air flight, how the system's commands appeared to pilots, what changes needed to be made to software, manuals and training, and the best way to make those changes.

Then they had to write new software code, test it — first in the lab, then on a 737 Max simulator, finally in a flying plane. And they had to be sure that the modifications didn't affect other flying characteristics of the plane.

lawyers say the second crash strengthens their argument that Boeing knew the plane was defective and let it fly anyway.

From Yahoo News

I don't know how you guys feel, but letting the aircraft fly, while they knew there was a problem to fix stinks. It has cost the lives of a further 157 people.  It worries me as to the ethics and competency of Boeing. This is going to hurt them bad. 

Are the repercussions muted because it happened in Ethiopia rather than the USA?

Edited by jacko

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The thing that bothers me the most is the eyewitnesses reports that the plane had parts falling off and that there was smoke. There were a number of witnesses. Are they all wrong? I was sure that the flight recorders would clear that up but there is no mention of it yet. If there was a structural failure while in flight Boeing will deserve to have their tit in the wringer big time.

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Would have it gotten 24/7 coverage if it had augured in in the US?  Yes, but it is getting a good deal of attention in the US media.  The FAA dithering and lobbying at the top level by Boeing cetainly drew critical comment..

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On 3/18/2019 at 3:36 PM, Gary said:

The thing that bothers me the most is the eyewitnesses reports that the plane had parts falling off and that there was smoke. There were a number of witnesses. Are they all wrong? I was sure that the flight recorders would clear that up but there is no mention of it yet. If there was a structural failure while in flight Boeing will deserve to have their tit in the wringer big time.

Eyewitness reports are notoriously wrong, whether its aircraft crashes or road crashes. Your average person is neither trained in the subject nor as an observer. Investigators will take them very guardedly. A mate of mine did research on the very subject some years ago for his doctorate; the outcome confirmed the lack of reliability.

Edited by Bob Belzy

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As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation told Bloomberg.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.

The previously undisclosed detail on the earlier Lion Air flight represents a new clue in the mystery of how some 737 Max pilots faced with the malfunction have been able to avert disaster while the others lost control of their planes and crashed.

The presence of a third pilot in the cockpit wasn’t contained in Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee’s November 28 report on the crash and hasn’t previously been reported.

Yahoo News.

 

Edited by jacko

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Interesting that if the point about the extra pilot is correct, it means that at least one Lion Air pilot had been trained in the MCAS.

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15 hours ago, Bob Belzy said:

Interesting that if the point about the extra pilot is correct, it means that at least one Lion Air pilot had been trained in the MCAS.

I may have got my facts mixed up but I heard 2 'solutions'. One was a little MCAS switch somewhere , another was killing the power to the tail horizontal stabilizers (although if that left them in an unsuitable position it would not be a perfect result). 

Imagine an aircraft not responding to pilot's input during climb and going nose down at a still low altitude, and a pilot has to remember about a little switch as he hurtles to the ground responsible for near 200 people.

Ethiopian Airlines crash: Pilot did not receive training on Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, sources say.

Boeing has said that experienced 737 pilots needed little training for the new Max 8, an assertion that has now come under close scrutiny by regulatory officials and pilots at other airlines.

Yahoo News.

It is hard trying to read the latest on this, most USA press outfits (like the Seattle Times) are blocked unless you subscribe or at least let them bombard you with adverts. It's a form of News embargo!

Edited by jacko

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Found this article that sets things out quite well:

http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

To disable the problem function involves selecting the automatic 'stab trim' off. I've tried to find (without success so far) a photo of the panel showing the switches on the Max, rather than older versions.

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2 hours ago, Bob Belzy said:

Found this article that sets things out quite well:

http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

To disable the problem function involves selecting the automatic 'stab trim' off. I've tried to find (without success so far) a photo of the panel showing the switches on the Max, rather than older versions.

The article you linked to had this...

Stab Trim Cut-Out Switches

The MAIN ELEC and AUTO PILOT stab trim cutout switches are now named PRI and B/U on the MAX. The switches are guarded in the NORMAL position (switch up) and CUTOFF is switch down.

stab_switches.jpg

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15 hours ago, Bob Belzy said:

Found this article that sets things out quite well:

http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

To disable the problem function involves selecting the automatic 'stab trim' off. I've tried to find (without success so far) a photo of the panel showing the switches on the Max, rather than older versions.

After reading through that article my understanding is that the MAX is fitted with 2 Angle of Attack sensors, yet only uses one at a time.... That is very poor design from a safety point of view if a safety critical sensor goes faulty. 

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7 hours ago, TheFiend said:

After reading through that article my understanding is that the MAX is fitted with 2 Angle of Attack sensors, yet only uses one at a time.... That is very poor design from a safety point of view if a safety critical sensor goes faulty. 

If my recollections are correct, 2 sensors isn't so great. You probably see similar in your work. hard to pick what number to use when 2 sensors give different numbers and there is a multitude of choices. I saw 3 where you can make more logical decisions based on only expecting one to 'fail'. Wasn't it some sensors icing up (airspeed) caused a lot of problems before. 

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5 hours ago, jacko said:

If my recollections are correct, 2 sensors isn't so great. You probably see similar in your work. hard to pick what number to use when 2 sensors give different numbers and there is a multitude of choices. I saw 3 where you can make more logical decisions based on only expecting one to 'fail'. Wasn't it some sensors icing up (airspeed) caused a lot of problems before. 

At my workplace safety critical systems we very often use "2 out of 3"  systems for alarm conditions and they get regularly tested to ensure correct operation. On some less critical systems we sometimes use "2 out of 2" . After maintenance we have to prove the safety function still operates before it can be signed off.

Edited by TheFiend

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On 3/15/2019 at 7:26 PM, TheFiend said:

Boeing failed to inform the airlines about the MCAS system before the Lion Air crash....... you can't train pilots on as system if the airline isn't told about it......

 

The flight before Lion Air crashed the jump seat pilot (hitching a free ride) told those two pilots how to get around the same problem as crashed the plane the next day. The pilots that did take the plane down didn't bother to read about what happened on that plane the flight before theirs. I would say the jump seat pilot had the knowledge from somewhere and that the two that crashed the plane didn't. The MCAS didn't bring down other MAX 8 planes, the pilots have to have some of the blame.

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29 minutes ago, JONPAT said:

The flight before Lion Air crashed the jump seat pilot (hitching a free ride) told those two pilots how to get around the same problem as crashed the plane the next day. The pilots that did take the plane down didn't bother to read about what happened on that plane the flight before theirs. I would say the jump seat pilot had the knowledge from somewhere and that the two that crashed the plane didn't. The MCAS didn't bring down other MAX 8 planes, the pilots have to have some of the blame.

From the latest reports I don't see how we can fault the pilots if there was no instruction given by Boeing on MCAS.

Boeing promoted 737 MAX as requiring little additional pilot training

Pilots at American Airlines, who are represented by APA, and Southwest Airlines, who are represented by a different union, moved from older versions of the 737 to the MAX by taking an online course that lasted between 56 minutes and three hours, according to union spokesmen.

That training included some differences between the two-plane series but did not explain MCAS, they said.

"MCAS was installed in the aircraft and Boeing didn't disclose that to the pilots," Mike Trevino, a spokesman for the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, told CNN.

 

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