The future of Long Haul - Opinions?.

[Butch 3,456]

I would think prices have bottomed out its all down to the price of oil and the world and individual countries economy's,Brexit may cause troubles for the UK travellers or the they live in a land of milk and honey with lots of cake under prime minister Boris.

 

Don't airlines bunker fuel or something, i.e they don't pay higher prices in any given country, it's all one cost ? (might be way wrong on that though).

 

I can't see how brexit will effect UK travellers any more than enoying a piece of halibut makes you a jehovahs witness.

[TheFiend 1,181]

 

Don't airlines bunker fuel or something, i.e they don't pay higher prices in any given country, it's all one cost ? (might be way wrong on that though).

 

I can't see how brexit will effect UK travellers any more than enoying a piece of halibut makes you a jehovahs witness.

 

Brexit will affect UK travellers going into Europe... Europe will want border control with us, Brits will have to start queuing alongside the Non-EU travellers to go through immigration

[yselmike 393]

Don't airlines bunker fuel or something, i.e they don't pay higher prices in any given country, it's all one cost ? (might be way wrong on that though).

 

I can't see how brexit will effect UK travellers any more than enoying a piece of halibut makes you a jehovahs witness.

I was thinking about how much the pound will be worth when Brexit actually happens,be aware you may not be able to enjoy soi 6 if it's full of Brits on the piss getting 90 baht for a pound.

[Bob Belzy 150]

As for the London Perth Route? It will die a death. Perth is a teeny little place and I suspect the main attraction for running out to Oz is the Stopovers allowed in Bangkok, KL Singapore or Hong Kong. On its own I just cannot see the traffic for a direct flight. Keerist ! a 10+ Hours and an A380 does me in.

Its a good publicity stunt, but will be pulled very quietly in around 6 months I suspect

 

Showing your lack of current knowledge there. Majority of the UK-OZ traffic goes via the Middle East these days. Mainly the 'quality tourists' from India and such places that stage through BKK and other Asian stops.

[MrMango 671]

Life would have been so much better and faster if the US hadnt fucked up the whole Concorde thing for nothing but jealousy. If Concorde had been allowed to land at all US airports, more would have been built, there would have been more development and then bigger Concorde's. But the USA couldnt make a supersonic passenger jet themselves so they made sure no one else would beat them.

The USA's actions in respect to Concorde held back aircraft design and development for decades and they should be ashamed of themselves. They are still seething over the Airbus A380 and developing nothing new. Even the Dreamliner is nothing but an old design with new materials and I wont even fly on one of the junkpiles after seeing the video I posted a few months back.

 

What the hell are you taking about? pray tell us unwashed exactly how the US fucked it? Did they stop it flying from the UK to Canada? India? South America? etc?

 

Actually, I have flown it between Washington DC and Dallas Tx in the past, so your prejudged post is factually wrong.

 

The reason it failed is a simple one, it had no legs!! It was a stretch to make it across the Atlantic.

[MrMango 671]

Some things are already happening (for better or worse): Chinese carriers are undercutting the main US carriers (and probably affecting others - ie Thai etc). The decreased flights from Delta mentioned above are a prime casualty. Low cost international flights to west coast US cities from China carriers (Air China, China Southern, China Eastern, China Air, etc) offer fares that US carriers can't compete with and maintain profit margins. There are several reasons for this, but China is winning. I am a prime example of an affected consumer. I flew LAX-BKK on US carriers (typically Delta or United) for the first 15 times I went to BKK paying between $600 - $1000 RT, or using mileage points. However, my last two trips have been on Chinese carriers - Air China ($447 RT), and China Southern ($568 RT). The only disadvantage is that the primary language is not English. However all announcements are eventually translated to English ( it is just not first). I actually like their schedules better, and the price speaks for itself. I like it and am willing to let my $$$ do the talking and give the US carriers the finger :-)

 

Some things that are happening in the US, that hopefully never make it to international flights to BKK:

-Charging for baggage. All (except SW) domestic US flights charge $25+, but so far this does not apply to international flights. Probably to stay as competitive to every other carrier that doesn't charge for this.

- Discounting for not pre assigning seats. A new attempt to make US domestic travelers pay for pre-assigned seating. Delta does this, and others make you pay more for pre-assigned seating(the lowest fare class you cannot get a seat till the date of the flight).

- Some low cost carriers (Spirit, Frontier etc) charge for carryon and everything else they can in order to offer a rock bottom base price.

 

I know the US carriers will get creative on giving less for the lower fares. As a result they will lose business to other international carriers that provide better service and schedules.

 

Zeus

I quite agree that US based carriers suck. There are several reasons, one is that they use the seniority system for flight crews where they are so old they carry a crutch and are paid big bucks.

 

Asian carriers can hire and fire at will, and I cannot remember seeing a flight attendant over 30 years old.

[MrMango 671]

My point was, if Biz class pays so well why are aircraft taking on more economy and less Biz class? Biz/ first class and Economy are symbiotic, without each other they couldnt economically exist. Its economy that pays a lot of the fuel and biz where some of the profit is, but the future is more economy and less Biz and First

 

From what I have been told, it is cargo that is the big money maker.

 

And the problem with first class (and Business class) is a lot don't pay a dime. Employees, family, and high mileage customers are given a free upgrade so there is no revenue there.

 

I remember seeing the head of Cathey on the news a while back where he said first class is the most expensive employee cafeteria there is.

[Bullfrog 2,224]

Asian carriers can hire and fire at will, and I cannot remember seeing a flight attendant over 30 years old.

 

Whilst BA cabin crew are so far up their own egos they think customers are a temporary inconvenience to be ignored..

[jacko 8,815]

 

Brexit will affect UK travellers going into Europe... Europe will want border control with us, Brits will have to start queuing alongside the Non-EU travellers to go through immigration

And thanks to the way the currency has gone ticket prices will go up, demand down.

[jacko 8,815]

 

Showing your lack of current knowledge there. Majority of the UK-OZ traffic goes via the Middle East these days. Mainly the 'quality tourists' from India and such places that stage through BKK and other Asian stops.

My recent flight included both BKK and ME. It originated in NZ, via Oz.

[yselmike 393]

And thanks to the way the currency has gone ticket prices will go up, demand down.

And disposable income falling,a collapse of the housing market forecast ( Telegraph independent)

That's to show I don't only read and quote the grauniad.

[Goldpanner 399]

 

Showing your lack of current knowledge there. Majority of the UK-OZ traffic goes via the Middle East these days. Mainly the 'quality tourists' from India and such places that stage through BKK and other Asian stops.

Majority? ? I think not.Youre showing your lack of ailines flying to Oz from the UK via South East Asia or using it as a stopover point.

 

SIA, Thai, Cathay, BA, Qantas, Garuda, PI, Malaysian, China (All 3 airlines), Air NZ, JAL, ANA, Korean Air, Vietnam Airlines, Royal Brunei,

 

All the above offer flights to Oz from the UK and offer stopovers in their country. The middle east has very very little to offer anyone as a stopoverunless you like sand, camels and stupid hotels.

Any more stupid remarks?

[Goldpanner 399]

What the hell are you taking about? pray tell us unwashed exactly how the US fucked it? Did they stop it flying from the UK to Canada? India? South America? etc?

 

Actually, I have flown it between Washington DC and Dallas Tx in the past, so your prejudged post is factually wrong.

 

The reason it failed is a simple one, it had no legs!! It was a stretch to make it across the Atlantic.

 

Good Grief. Your knowledge is amazing.? Isnt it uncomforatble walking around with your foot in your mouth?

On perceived noise levels the majority of US airports refused Concorde landing right. Actually there was no problem with noise levels,it was tiny mindedness on behalf of the US Government at the time and jealousy by Boeing that they couldnt economically build a Concorde.

Without access to the main US Airports The Atlantic route was buggered. Because of the bullshit put out by US Authorities and Boeing about noise and pollution levels most countries in the world alsochanged their mind about buyiing Concordeif they couldnt run it out of their country to the main US Airports.

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey banned Concorde but that was eventually repealed but by that time it was too late, the seeds had been sown.

Richard Wiggs, sponsored probably by Boeingcaused much dissent against Concorde yet his main complaint of noisewas destroyed when it was founf that many US Aircraft were noisier.

 

It is also true that the world economic situation at the time was not good and many aitlines who initially put in orders for Concorde cancelled.

But its a well known fact in the Concorde circles that the propaganda put out by several prominent US Authorities and people who were against Concorde, spread worldwide and there were rumours around at the time that, any airline Flying concorde would never be allowed to fly into many US Airports.

 

In my opinion it was pure jealousy on Behalf of Boeing who then influenced many airlines into withdrawing their offers for Concorde,plus the whispering scandal stories put out by Richard Wigg that doomed Concorde.

If Concorde had been allowed to prosper and develop we could now all be flying to Bangkok from the UK in around 4 to 5 hours. Thanks mainly to the Yanks and the world economic situation we are forced into 11 hour flights.

But what do we see now? Several companies developing Supersonic Passeger jets? Supersonic is the only future for Long Haul

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Concorde_Project

[torrenova 644]

It does seem that economy is getting to be more 'economical'... and conversely Biz getting better. I guess since most of the money being made on a flight comes from the premium cabins that is natural. I just did a Biz hop from Bangkok to UK on A380 equipment and it far exceeds some of the flights I took during my working career. It may sound snobby but you don't even see the economy passengers, except when you get off and they are trying to push through to disembark with the premium cabins (Held at bay like braying livestock). So increasing discomfort in economy is likely to be accompanied by improving comfort at the front. I hope the prices can stay the same.

 

Business class is being seriously pared back !

 

Look at Etihad.

 

Chauffeurs - gone, even for first class (outside UAE)

 

Wine - downgraded

 

Food - downgraded

 

Cheese - 2 types down from 4

 

Amenity kits - no kits for daytime flights (this shocked me)

 

Lounges - selling access to economy passengers and charging for spa treatments previously free

 

Mileage - huge devaluations and raised taxes

 

All in all, I work it out that the value (including the now missing 3x and 4x points which were regular items) the cost of a ticket has risen by 1/3rd netting off the lost items and the real world costs now incurred.

[MrMango 671]

 

Good Grief. Your knowledge is amazing.? Isnt it uncomforatble walking around with your foot in your mouth?

On perceived noise levels the majority of US airports refused Concorde landing right. Actually there was no problem with noise levels,it was tiny mindedness on behalf of the US Government at the time and jealousy by Boeing that they couldnt economically build a Concorde.

 

What bullshit. Your own source says that the US Air Force paid millions of US$ for damage from Shock waves, and that had nothing to do with Boeing. The US did and still does have noise limits, and all of Boeing's early jets are now prohibited from flying and landing in the US.

 

 

Without access to the main US Airports The Atlantic route was buggered. Because of the bullshit put out by US Authorities and Boeing about noise and pollution levels most countries in the world alsochanged their mind about buyiing Concordeif they couldnt run it out of their country to the main US Airports.

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey banned Concorde but that was eventually repealed but by that time it was too late, the seeds had been sown.

Richard Wiggs, sponsored probably by Boeingcaused much dissent against Concorde yet his main complaint of noisewas destroyed when it was founf that many US Aircraft were noisier.

 

More bullshit. Sure, a lot of US Aircraft were noisy, but they are banned too. I have actually flown the Concorde from Washington DC to Dallas Texas commercially.

 

 

 

It is also true that the world economic situation at the time was not good and many aitlines who initially put in orders for Concorde cancelled.

 

Of course, as jet fuel went up dramatically and it was unprofitable to fly that Bird, but that was Boeing's fault.

 

 

But its a well known fact in the Concorde circles that the propaganda put out by several prominent US Authorities and people who were against Concorde, spread worldwide and there were rumours around at the time that, any airline Flying concorde would never be allowed to fly into many US Airports.

 

More pure bullshit with no basis of fact.

 

 

In my opinion it was pure jealousy on Behalf of Boeing who then influenced many airlines into withdrawing their offers for Concorde,plus the whispering scandal stories put out by Richard Wigg that doomed Concorde.

If Concorde had been allowed to prosper and develop we could now all be flying to Bangkok from the UK in around 4 to 5 hours. Thanks mainly to the Yanks and the world economic situation we are forced into 11 hour flights.

But what do we see now? Several companies developing Supersonic Passeger jets? Supersonic is the only future for Long Haul

 

You are of course free to express your opinion, which in my opinion is pure bullsiht with no rational facts.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Concorde_Project

 

That is your source? ONE crazy guy caused the cancellation of the Concord?

Pray tell us how it was such a great bird, but Boeing and the US caused it's demise?

 

Have you ever flown it? I have more than once, and it is a small bird as my head almost hit the ceiling upon boarding and as I remember, it held about 100 passengers, smaller than a commuter jet and very narrow.

 

And if it was such a great bird, why did they not use it on the UK-HK-Syd route?

 

It had limited capacity, limited legs, and drank jet fuel like a Thai gogo dancer.

[jacko 8,815]

 

Business class is being seriously pared back !

 

Look at Etihad.

 

Chauffeurs - gone, even for first class (outside UAE)

 

Wine - downgraded

 

Food - downgraded

 

Cheese - 2 types down from 4

 

Amenity kits - no kits for daytime flights (this shocked me)

 

Lounges - selling access to economy passengers and charging for spa treatments previously free

 

Mileage - huge devaluations and raised taxes

 

All in all, I work it out that the value (including the now missing 3x and 4x points which were regular items) the cost of a ticket has risen by 1/3rd netting off the lost items and the real world costs now incurred.

The Biz Cabins these days are far better than they used to be years ago.. although I agree the meals and extras may not always be. Lie flat beds, bar at the rear, bigger screen entertainment, noise cancelling headphones, larger more comfortable lounges providing restaurant type facilities. My last one had a selection of drinks actually at the side of the seat, help yourself. Mattresses supplied. Herringbone arrangement which means you have a window yet easy access to aisles. Far superior to the side by side wider seats of years ago. Good privacy.

 

Surprised you would think otherwise, or do I spoil myself using mainly Emirates (A380) Qatar (A380) and Etihad?

 

Years ago there was no such thing as a Chauffeurs on my frequent BA Biz flights, although we got British newspapers and Stilton!

 

I hadn't considered price but many many years ago a BA Biz was about 3 grand, I get Emirates for 1200 or so. The difference between Economy and Biz price has increased, factor of 3x or more now!

Edited July 30, 2017 by jacko

[4wheels 119]

The price of fuel killed the A340. Due have to admit I miss the quiet cabin and soft landings.

 

 

Obviously you can't put passengers in the cargo area during take off and landing for safety reasons. That is a crumple zone. But what if you put bunks in them three high? I would like to know how much revenue comes from cargo on a 16 hour long haul 777-300.

 

I don't think ala-cart in economy is practical on a long (16 hr) haul.

 

Several years ago that was correct. Fuel prices are down but indeed fuel killed the A340 and now,the 747. You can do any 747 trip with a twin engine aircraft. And have been able to for over a decade,easily with the 777-200LR. And now the Dreamliner and A350.

[4wheels 119]

Life would have been so much better and faster if the US hadnt fucked up the whole Concorde thing for nothing but jealousy. If Concorde had been allowed to land at all US airports, more would have been built, there would have been more development and then bigger Concorde's. But the USA couldnt make a supersonic passenger jet themselves so they made sure no one else would beat them.

The USA's actions in respect to Concorde held back aircraft design and development for decades and they should be ashamed of themselves. They are still seething over the Airbus A380 and developing nothing new. Even the Dreamliner is nothing but an old design with new materials and I wont even fly on one of the junkpiles after seeing the video I posted a few months back.

 

However, the UK government have to also take some blame by clamming up on the developers of the supersonic scram jet which would have allowed trips from UK to Oz in a couple of hours. Its only recently they have been allowed to open up developpment and sell patents to the US.

 

Personally I loved the old 707. It was a comfortable old bus and the food was always good. It was also the plane that brought cheap travel to the world before the 747

 

And in opposition to Jacko's comments I think Economy, on most long haul airlines is getting better and better. Of course you dont see the Economy passengers, fool, because they are behind the snob class.

I dont fly either snob or snot class even though I can afford it, much preferring Economy simply for the money saved. There's no way a semi recline bed, metal knives and forks and grovelling waitresses can be justified by a £1000 and £2000 hike in the price. OK if you only fly rarely then I supposes its a treat to be treated like you actually are somebody but its not for me.

I do agree that some scum airlines like BA and Eva are taking out Exit seats to squeeze more punters in and I wont fly them, but seats and leg room in most A380s now arent bad at all and with a sleeping pill, I sleep from an hor or so after take-off to an hour or so before landing. I also suspect that BA's removal of the wing Exit doors and putting in extra seats is simply a desperation act to try and keep their failing airlines going. They were once the best, now they dont even rate half way down the list and are one above Ryanair (who are scum).

 

Those 1st few sentences are hilarious. Did you ever fly the Concorde? The interior was the size of a 1970s DC-9 and the ONLY positive for the aircraft was speed and nothing else.

[4wheels 119]

I didnt mean to class Eva in with BA scum but I still think its despicable for them to cram more seats in. I wont fly with them. Then again I never have so no change there.

You comment about increasing capacityorface rising rising prices wontt work as theres simply too much competition on the UK/EU to Orient routes.

If your hypothesis was right then why have BA joined the cheapie market? something they swore they would never do. 10 year back when Thai were selling uk-BKK for £450 BA were over £650, Now? BA are the cheapest Non stop London-BKK airline at under £500.

I will never fly BA anywhere ever again. I've flown them 3 times now and every time was a catastrophy,

The last flight to BKK on their atrocious 777 cost them 600 Euros in compensation to me, plus an overnight stay in a hotel plusfood and transfers. That is substantially more than I even paid for the ticket in the first place and I encouraged everyone to claim from BA. The CAA isnt worth a bean as they have no powers and wont even respond to complaints about BA other than brusque brush offs.

 

I always hear about economy being the least profitable. Personally and these days I think thats a fallacy propogated on airlines and expenses of the 80's.

If it was true nowadays, why have some airlines completely removed Business class or severely reduced them to get more economy seats in ?

On the Thai A380 I flew last October from LHR to BKK there was NO business class whatsoever on the lower deck but on the A380 earlier in the year the forward half of the plane was Business and that was mostly empty when I did a walk through. !

If you price economy punters out of long haul, the airlines will go bust. Work out the economics.

 

Yes I can see airlines going for paid food via ticket prices and I personally see no need for 30KG baggage allowance for any regular tourist though my daughter needs about 50KG just for her makeup!. My baggage is never over 8 or 9 Kg and thats with a Pilots case that weighs 3Kg.

 

Maybe they could create giant gliders to be towed behind the A380's and why cant they build more Antonov An-225's and put seats in? 1000 passengers maybe?? theres a thought.

I can see the return of giant airships too. a 2 or 3 week flight to Australia travelling ever so slowly, though it would be a giant bullseye in the sky for terrorists.

 

I know my next trip to Thailand will be my last, and to be honest I'm still not even 50% sure I'm going to go. Bangkok and Pattaya hold no surprises or excitment for me now, Many of my friends are either dead or moved away and the only real reason for going was to transit through to Phnom Penh to see someone.

There are sufficent Thai girls down south here if I get an urgent need to shag one other than my wife.

 

and now the space bar onmy laptophasjust packedup. Oh Bollocksim going backto bed

 

I have to correct you on your assumption regarding the economy compartment. Fares change many times a day on certain routes as airlines try to maximize revenue. And regarding downsizing First Business and Premium Economy,very few airlines have deleted 1 of those classes and nearly every airline has added a Premium Economy product-nearly every one. Another reason is the Suites offered in true First Class take up more space the any lie-flat seat.The money to be made is INDEED in the front 1/4 of any aircraft. Period.

But I always enjoy hearing from others.

[4wheels 119]

 

 

They fly non-stop out of MSP as well.

 

You won't be flying Delta to BKK much longer,sadly.

[4wheels 119]

They fly to HND from there. I was only looking at flights to NRT when they still had the NRT-BKK flight. No way would I fly into Haneda and depart from Narita. Moot point now since they have stopped Bangkok flights.

 

Delta doesn't fly beyond HND anywhere. It's a point to point station. Delta is dropping many of their routes in Asia from NRT. BKK,TPE,HKG. Manila is down from 3 flights to one from NRT. 1 was from Nagoya-it's gone. HKG service is from SEA now.

[4wheels 119]

 

Good Grief. Your knowledge is amazing.? Isnt it uncomforatble walking around with your foot in your mouth?

On perceived noise levels the majority of US airports refused Concorde landing right. Actually there was no problem with noise levels,it was tiny mindedness on behalf of the US Government at the time and jealousy by Boeing that they couldnt economically build a Concorde.

Without access to the main US Airports The Atlantic route was buggered. Because of the bullshit put out by US Authorities and Boeing about noise and pollution levels most countries in the world alsochanged their mind about buyiing Concordeif they couldnt run it out of their country to the main US Airports.

Port Authority of New York and New Jersey banned Concorde but that was eventually repealed but by that time it was too late, the seeds had been sown.

Richard Wiggs, sponsored probably by Boeingcaused much dissent against Concorde yet his main complaint of noisewas destroyed when it was founf that many US Aircraft were noisier.

 

It is also true that the world economic situation at the time was not good and many aitlines who initially put in orders for Concorde cancelled.

But its a well known fact in the Concorde circles that the propaganda put out by several prominent US Authorities and people who were against Concorde, spread worldwide and there were rumours around at the time that, any airline Flying concorde would never be allowed to fly into many US Airports.

 

In my opinion it was pure jealousy on Behalf of Boeing who then influenced many airlines into withdrawing their offers for Concorde,plus the whispering scandal stories put out by Richard Wigg that doomed Concorde.

If Concorde had been allowed to prosper and develop we could now all be flying to Bangkok from the UK in around 4 to 5 hours. Thanks mainly to the Yanks and the world economic situation we are forced into 11 hour flights.

But what do we see now? Several companies developing Supersonic Passeger jets? Supersonic is the only future for Long Haul

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Concorde_Project

 

Actually,you are wrong again. I lived adjacent to 2 US airports in question,MIA and IAD-that's Dulles for the great unwashed. The remainder of your gibberish is hilarious. Do you REALLY think you would be flying on a Concorde to BKK these days if they were available. They carried very few passengers and were ALL First Class. Yeah,so tell me again about all of us flying to BKK on the Concorde. The remainder of your diatribe is only about US bashing from a UK fan boy.

[4wheels 119]

Back to the OP,we see the future on travel,at least in my lifetime,as the Dreamliner and the A350. I have flown both and thoroughly enjoyed the cabin atmosphere of several thousand feet lower than any previous aircraft. Next trip on future aircraft is YYZ-BOM on Air Canada Dreamlliner (787-9).

[yselmike 393]

Whilst BA cabin crew are so far up their own egos they think customers are a temporary inconvenience to be ignored..

KLM crew are the same if you fly cattle class.

[yselmike 393]

Actually,you are wrong again. I lived adjacent to 2 US airports in question,MIA and IAD-that's Dulles for the great unwashed. The remainder of your gibberish is hilarious. Do you REALLY think you would be flying on a Concorde to BKK these days if they were available. They carried very few passengers and were ALL First Class. Yeah,so tell me again about all of us flying to BKK on the Concorde. The remainder of your diatribe is only about US bashing from a UK fan boy.

And it was a disaster from the pollution it churned out,I seem to remember the main complaint was the noise on take off.I read the Guardian so my complaint was about the environmental impact, not because I could not afford the price of a ticket you understand.