Boeing 737-Max. Another one down.

[Bob Belzy 150]

The duopoly will certainly cushion the effect, but it will not stop the effect.

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

11 minutes ago, Bob Belzy said:

The duopoly will certainly cushion the effect, but it will not stop the effect.

This is not new, Boeing had this problem decades ago.

If Boeing convinces airlines and passengers of the airworthiness most will be forgiven.

There were human failings in this. One of the pilots disengaged the auto system at the onset of the problem and then re-engaged it in error. The US government have insufficient inspectors and allow Boeing to do their own inspections. I assume that applies to Airbus planes sold to American companies.

Here is an interesting article:

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737-max-8-orders-unlikely-canceled-experts-2019-3

• Garuda Indonesia is the first airline to attempt to cancel its order for Boeing's 737 Max 8 aircraft, a decision the airline announced on Friday.
• But other airlines won't necessarily follow Garuda's lead in canceling 737 Max 8 orders, according to the aviation analysts Henry Harteveldt and George Hamlin.
• The decision to cancel an aircraft order is a difficult one, because of Boeing's and Airbus' dominance in the market for large commercial aircraft, as well as the series of investments and decisions airlines make when they order an aircraft.

[TheFiend 1,181]

It's damning that Boeing knew about the issues before the crashes....

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

According to this, Boeing outsourced the 737 Max software to $9 dollar an hour engineers.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

[TheFiend 1,181]

6 hours ago, midlifecrisis said:

According to this, Boeing outsourced the 737 Max software to $9 dollar an hour engineers.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

The Max software -- plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw -- was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

MCAS...... it's turning out to be a real clusterfuck for Boeing.....

Software outsourced so it could be written on the cheap .... most probably written badly and with the code not optimised for the hardware.

MCAS hardware was specified on the cheap, so struggling to run the rewritten MCAS software.......

No training on MCAS provided because the biggest MAX customer, Southwest Airlines didn't want to have to train it's pilots on the MAX MCAS system.....

Boeing have put profit and share price before safety......

 

And things aren't getting any better for Boeing.... it's also come out that falsified QA records had been found after an Air Canada 787 was found to have a leak on the fuel system back in 2015. The leak was discovered 10 months after entering service but the cause of the leak was traced back to when the aircraft was built. The Federal prosecutors are investigating that as well now..

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

16 hours ago, TheFiend said:

MCAS...... it's turning out to be a real clusterfuck for Boeing.....

Software outsourced so it could be written on the cheap .... most probably written badly and with the code not optimised for the hardware.

MCAS hardware was specified on the cheap, so struggling to run the rewritten MCAS software.......

No training on MCAS provided because the biggest MAX customer, Southwest Airlines didn't want to have to train it's pilots on the MAX MCAS system.....

Boeing have put profit and share price before safety......

 

And things aren't getting any better for Boeing.... it's also come out that falsified QA records had been found after an Air Canada 787 was found to have a leak on the fuel system back in 2015. The leak was discovered 10 months after entering service but the cause of the leak was traced back to when the aircraft was built. The Federal prosecutors are investigating that as well now..

It used to be a company that didn't cut corners. At first I didn't think it would affect their business too badly with the long lead time for new aircraft and only one main competetor but then I read that one of the biggest Boeing customers in America, Southwest, with I believe has the most 737 Max planes in their livery, is considering Airbus. A major blow if it works out that way.

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-a220-order/

Edited July 2, 2019 by midlifecrisis

[Bob Belzy 150]

13 hours ago, midlifecrisis said:

It used to be a company that didn't cut corners. At first I didn't think it would affect their business too badly with the long lead time for new aircraft and only one main competetor but then I read that one of the biggest Boeing customers in America, Southwest, with I believe is the most 737 Max planes in their livery, is considering Airbus. A major blow if it works out that way.

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-a220-order/

We live in a world that is now run by dollar chasing accountants, nothing else matters, just get it for the cheapest you can to maximize profit..

[MrMango 671]

4 hours ago, Bob Belzy said:

We live in a world that is now run by dollar chasing accountants, nothing else matters, just get it for the cheapest you can to maximize profit..

As it should be, that makes all of us better off. I do not understand the logic of somebody saying that a $30 per hour idiot is a better programmer than a $9 per hour idiot.

Managements job is to make the best possible product at the lowest cost and always has been.

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

33 minutes ago, MrMango said:

As it should be, that makes all of us better off. I do not understand the logic of somebody saying that a $30 per hour idiot is a better programmer than a $9 per hour idiot.

Managements job is to make the best possible product at the lowest cost and always has been.

Which is fine if a toaster stops working. Not fine if it catches on fire. Not fine when airplanes are falling out of the sky.

Boeing has a responsibility most companies do not have. Would you rather fly on a Boeing or Airbus jet or an Aeroflot jet? We trust certain companies because they are more reliable than others and with a better safety record.

How many people look to see what type of aircraft they will be flying on? I do. If I saw a 737 Max, I would look for another carrier. I think many savy travelers wouuld as well.

So, Boeing cut corners and it is likely to cost them billions of dollars.

[MrMango 671]

1 hour ago, midlifecrisis said:

Which is fine if a toaster stops working. Not fine if it catches on fire. Not fine when airplanes are falling out of the sky.

Boeing has a responsibility most companies do not have. Would you rather fly on a Boeing or Airbus jet or an Aeroflot jet? We trust certain companies because they are more reliable than others and with a better safety record.

How many people look to see what type of aircraft they will be flying on? I do. If I saw a 737 Max, I would look for another carrier. I think many savy travelers wouuld as well.

So, Boeing cut corners and it is likely to cost them billions of dollars.

I totally agree what you said but my point is that if you pay a higher price for engineering makes it any better. 

There are great programmers and bad ones, I have hired both and the price I paid them was not what determined quality.

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

1 hour ago, MrMango said:

I totally agree what you said but my point is that if you pay a higher price for engineering makes it any better. 

There are great programmers and bad ones, I have hired both and the price I paid them was not what determined quality.

makes sense

[jacko 8,814]

5 hours ago, MrMango said:

As it should be, that makes all of us better off. I do not understand the logic of somebody saying that a $30 per hour idiot is a better programmer than a $9 per hour idiot.

Managements job is to make the best possible product at the lowest cost and always has been.

I think you are way off mark there. I used to do programming of controls and making modifications  is not always so straight forward. A programmer has to understand the overall system to make changes in one smaller subsection of the strategy, there are frequently knock on effects of what might be completely different ares of the strategy. 

Managers and bean counters often make cost-saving decisions without implementing safeguards. I recall some bright spark introducing Chinese made flanges, as they were substantially cheaper. The QC then broke down, the Chinese did not see the reason for a spec requiring them to be cast as a single piece, so didn't, and welded them. QC failed, the parts were utilized in a lubrication system, subsequently failed, causing catastrophic failures. 

It may seem elitist, but I would not have trusted some of the people I had to work with to do the job competently. 

[MrMango 671]

24 minutes ago, jacko said:

I think you are way off mark there. I used to do programming of controls and making modifications  is not always so straight forward. A programmer has to understand the overall system to make changes in one smaller subsection of the strategy, there are frequently knock on effects of what might be completely different ares of the strategy. 

Managers and bean counters often make cost-saving decisions without implementing safeguards. I recall some bright spark introducing Chinese made flanges, as they were substantially cheaper. The QC then broke down, the Chinese did not see the reason for a spec requiring them to be cast as a single piece, so didn't, and welded them. QC failed, the parts were utilized in a lubrication system, subsequently failed, causing catastrophic failures. 

It may seem elitist, but I would not have trusted some of the people I had to work with to do the job competently. 

Off the mark? I don't think so.

I agree with your post but it totally misses my point, When I had my computer company, I found that maybe 10% of the programmers were great, 60 % average, and the rest idiots.

And there were idiots and geniuses in all wage areas.

[TheFiend 1,181]

4 hours ago, jacko said:

I think you are way off mark there. I used to do programming of controls and making modifications  is not always so straight forward. A programmer has to understand the overall system to make changes in one smaller subsection of the strategy, there are frequently knock on effects of what might be completely different ares of the strategy. 

In my industry even the slightest change in coding has to go through several authorisations before it can be modified, an even then it has to be done on an off-line system (simulator) which is then tested for positive and negative paths to ensure the mod has no negative impact to the process. Only then can it be loaded on to the online system and then gets tested again.

[capdagde 1,954]

Everytime I see this thread title - almost every day - I think WTF?  ANOTHER ONE?

Without having to read the whole thread..... How many is it now?

Andy Cap

[awesum4 2,332]

4 minutes ago, capdagde said:

Everytime I see this thread title - almost every day - I think WTF?  ANOTHER ONE?

Without having to read the whole thread..... How many is it now?

Andy Cap

2 crashed with all on board killed.

I dont think any of them are actually flying commercially. No date for them to return to service has been announced.

[capdagde 1,954]

1 minute ago, awesum4 said:

2 crashed with all on board killed.

I dont think any of them are actually flying commercially. No date for them to return to service has been announced.

Whispers..... I know A, but I see the headline every day, gerrit?.

[awesum4 2,332]

Just now, capdagde said:

Whispers..... I know A, but I see the headline every day, gerrit?.

There was a long running thread about  how Boeing was so much better than Airbus. Maybe you should find it and revive it. Would be interesting to see if the Boeing champions are still so vehement in their cause.

Personally I think the A380 is the best long distance plane I have ever flown in. But I can only afford economy so I am biased.

[capdagde 1,954]

2 minutes ago, awesum4 said:

There was a long running thread about  how Boeing was so much better than Airbus. Maybe you should find it and revive it. Would be interesting to see if the Boeing champions are still so vehement in their cause.

Personally I think the A380 is the best long distance plane I have ever flown in. But I can only afford economy so I am biased.

Few once on it - last return from LOS.  Such a big plane, so little room.  Whispers.... BTW Stop TFing. This thread is about Boeing.....

Edited July 3, 2019 by capdagde

[awesum4 2,332]

6 minutes ago, capdagde said:

Few once on it - last return from LOS.  Such a big plane, so little room.  Whispers.... BTW Stop TFing. This thread is about Boeing.....

Few or flew?   

What airline were you on?  Emirates version definitely had more room than any 747 I flew on. 

[MrMango 671]

2 minutes ago, awesum4 said:

Few or flew?   

What airline were you on?  Emirates version definitely had more room than any 747 I flew on. 

It is not the airplane manafture who decides the seating but the provider, so blaming Boeing for not having leg room is crazy.

[TheFiend 1,181]

26 minutes ago, MrMango said:

It is not the airplane manafture who decides the seating but the provider, so blaming Boeing for not having leg room is crazy.

But Boeing seems to actively push higher density seating...... 10 abreast on 777's  and 9 abreast on 787's..... How many Airbus customers opt for 9 across on the A330,, 10 across in A350 and 11 across in the A380??? With Airbus high density configs are the exception rather than the rule.

[midlifecrisis 4,048]

28 minutes ago, TheFiend said:

But Boeing seems to actively push higher density seating...... 10 abreast on 777's  and 9 abreast on 787's..... How many Airbus customers opt for 9 across on the A330,, 10 across in A350 and 11 across in the A380??? With Airbus high density configs are the exception rather than the rule.

Does Boeing push or just offer it for airlines that want to jam the most people they can onto their flights? So that they appeal to a different clientel as it were.

[MrMango 671]

1 hour ago, TheFiend said:

But Boeing seems to actively push higher density seating...... 10 abreast on 777's  and 9 abreast on 787's..... How many Airbus customers opt for 9 across on the A330,, 10 across in A350 and 11 across in the A380??? With Airbus high density configs are the exception rather than the rule.

When you sell anything, you offer all kinds of options, but it is the customer who decides. Airlines are very sophisticated in what they want in their birds and it is there choice, not Boeing who makes that decision.

[MrMango 671]

2 hours ago, TheFiend said:

But Boeing seems to actively push higher density seating...... 10 abreast on 777's  and 9 abreast on 787's..... How many Airbus customers opt for 9 across on the A330,, 10 across in A350 and 11 across in the A380??? With Airbus high density configs are the exception rather than the rule.

The seating is a function of the cabin width as well as the desires of the Airlines, not boeing or Airbus. 

And the pitch of he seats is the same, up to the customer.