Boeing 737-Max. Another one down.

[Butch 3,456]

4 hours ago, MrMango said:

i read that opinion piece and its the usual more lift with the engines a foot or two forward of the CG, but they never mention how much extra lift is generated. My guess is very little and that can be offset b y other changes. Lots of jets have engines mounted in the tail, which is much farther away from the CG than the 737, but no one is saying that creates unstable downward lift and is unstable.

Good points and valid, but I think the concept of "3 holers" like the DC10, MD11 and Tristar are confined to history for the exact reasons which you mention. Eveything today seems to point at 2 engine capacities for all ranges.

[MrMango 671]

8 hours ago, js007 said:

I know absolutely nothing about aeronautical engineering.  Just what I read, from time to time.  Anyway, the point seems to be that while lots of planes are manufactured to be aerodynamically unstable, that's not a good idea for a passenger plane.  

I too know nothing about aeronautical engineering - I was a EE major, but I do have knowledge as a pilot.

No fixed wing bird I have ever flown was unstable and from what I understand none of the ones I mentioned were unstable as long as you keep within the approved W&B.

To me a stable  bird is one that is trimmed for cruze straight and level and you pull up and twist the stick, then let go, the bird will return to straight and level.

 

 

[MrMango 671]

7 hours ago, Butch said:

Good points and valid, but I think the concept of "3 holers" like the DC10, MD11 and Tristar are confined to history for the exact reasons which you mention. Eveything today seems to point at 2 engine capacities for all ranges.

To me,the reason for 3 holers went away is the same reasons that 4 holers are also going away - They are too expensive to fly.

The 2 hole DC-( ( Boeing 717) is still flying here in Hwaaii and it has 2 read mounted engines with a great safety record.

[jacko 8,814]

20 hours ago, MrMango said:

he 2 hole DC-( ( Boeing 717) is still flying here in Hwaaii and it has 2 read mounted engines with a great safety record.

Wasn't that made by McDonnell Douglas ... the old MD95. No issue with ground clearance and moving engines around here, as Boeing didn't upgrade it.

[MrMango 671]

1 hour ago, jacko said:

Wasn't that made by McDonnell Douglas ... the old MD95. No issue with ground clearance and moving engines around here, as Boeing didn't upgrade it.

Yes, it's the same bird as Boeing acquired it when they Bought MD and let the production die.

As for ground clearance, the DC-9 had tail mounted engines that were mounted on the fuselage so even if they upgraded the engines ground clearance would not be the problem, but production stopped before bigger diameter engines became available.

Southwest Airlines ONLY flies 737's and they insisted on the Max to keep the same ground height as all of the infrastructure they have was designed for 737's and any new height would require a massive change and investment.

[nkped 1,208]

2 hours ago, jacko said:

Wasn't that made by McDonnell Douglas ... the old MD95. No issue with ground clearance and moving engines around here, as Boeing didn't upgrade it.

Flew on a 717 once, with Bangkok Air,  I think.  If so, they didn't keep them.  Still had the new airplane smell.

[MrMango 671]

6 hours ago, nkped said:

Flew on a 717 once, with Bangkok Air,  I think.  If so, they didn't keep them.  Still had the new airplane smell.

99% of the interisland flights here in Hawaii use 717 (DC-9)

So I use them frequently - Not my favorite bird, but I have no choice.

[wacmedia 277]

On 10/26/2019 at 6:14 AM, js007 said:

 

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd never in a million years get onto one of this planes.  I'd rather walk or swim.  They all need to be parked out in the desert someplace, or fed into the shredder.  

Hi,

I agree. Flown the 737 loads of times, but I will avoid this one. If people refuse to fly on them they will be scrapped.

[jacko 8,814]

12 hours ago, wacmedia said:

Hi,

I agree. Flown the 737 loads of times, but I will avoid this one. If people refuse to fly on them they will be scrapped.

Well they have been grounded some time now and it is a slow enduring process. I expect there will be people like yourselves in the future when they try and re-introduce them, perhaps with a new name. There have been 4900 ordered and 387 delivered. Southwest and the Leasing company GECAS have the most, and order wise Southwest, GECAS, Flydubai, Lion Air ,Vietjet, Ryan Air have large orders. I don't yet hear of orders being cancelled, although Flydeal (Saudi Arabia) cancelled 30.... that in itself is more astounding than surprising. 

Edited October 28, 2019 by jacko

[js007 795]

18 minutes ago, jacko said:

Well they have been grounded some time now and it is a slow enduring process. I expect there will be people like yourselves in the future when they try and re-introduce them, perhaps with a new name. There have been 4900 ordered and 387 delivered. Southwest and th Leasing company GECAS have the most, and order wise Southwest, GECAS, LjuDubai, Lion Air ,Vietjet, Ryan Air have large orders. I don't yet hear of orders being cancelled.... that in itself is more astounding than surprising. 

They are all headed for the scrap heap.  

[JONPAT 222]

Those planes will fly again. Just make it easier to turn off the MCAS, add a backup to what turns on the MCAS , train the pilots , should be good to go.  

[js007 795]

43 minutes ago, JONPAT said:

Those planes will fly again. Just make it easier to turn off the MCAS, add a backup to what turns on the MCAS , train the pilots , should be good to go.  

Scrap heap.  That's my vote. 

[jacko 8,814]

2 hours ago, JONPAT said:

Those planes will fly again. Just make it easier to turn off the MCAS, add a backup to what turns on the MCAS , train the pilots , should be good to go.  

I wonder, the massive order book and investment make that likely, but apparent arrogance and ineptitude at Boeing have done the damage. That along with the 346 corpses I guess. There was a gap of over 4 months between Lion Air 610 and Ethiopian 302 where some input from Boeing may have saved the latter 157 lives. 

[nkped 1,208]

20 hours ago, MrMango said:

99% of the interisland flights here in Hawaii use 717 (DC-9)

So I use them frequently - Not my favorite bird, but I have no choice.

Forty years ago Hawaiian was flying DC-9s between the islands.  On the other hand, it was Aloha which proved you could fly a 737 open cockpit.  Aloha #243

[MrMango 671]

1 hour ago, nkped said:

Forty years ago Hawaiian was flying DC-9s between the islands.  On the other hand, it was Aloha which proved you could fly a 737 open cockpit.  Aloha #243

Yes, and Aloha is out of business and Hawaiian is still flying the DC-9's, even though they had to get a waiver from the DOT as they dont pass the latest noise rules and other things.

Southwest is just putting its toe in the water here in Hawaii and is starting to fly interisland as well as mainland flights and of course, they use &37's....

[wacmedia 277]

8 hours ago, js007 said:

Scrap heap.  That's my vote. 

Hi,

The first jet was a Comet. They had some accidents and... 

[forcebwithu 4,853]

15 hours ago, wacmedia said:

Hi,

The first jet was a Comet. They had some accidents and... 

learned from the accidents about metal fatigue due to pressurization and depressurization cycles.

It's tragic that sometimes the learning curve results in deaths. 

[nkped 1,208]

23 hours ago, wacmedia said:

Hi,

The first jet was a Comet. They had some accidents and... 

If I remember correctly, the RAF flew the Nimrod, the military version of the Comet, until fairly recently.

[wacmedia 277]

4 hours ago, nkped said:

If I remember correctly, the RAF flew the Nimrod, the military version of the Comet, until fairly recently.

Hi,

Yeah, I think you are right. But it was a commercial failure. I believe the same fate awaits the Max.

[wacmedia 277]

Hi,

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1104/1088472-ryanair-reports-flat-profit-for-half-year/

Ryanair has today announced a further two-month delay to the start of its Boeing MAX 737 deliveries.

It also warned it may have none of the jets to fly next summer, which would freeze growth of one of Europe's fastest growing airlines. 

In July, Ryanair said it expected to be flying 30 737 MAX planes next summer with its first delivery due in January. 

Ryanair is one of Boeing's biggest customers for the grounded plane with 210 on order. 

[Gus 97]

Now some of the 737-800s have been grounded due to metal fatigue on some bolts where the wing joins the fuselage, not a large amount of frames but enough to keep the press happy.

[MrMango 671]

7 hours ago, Gus said:

Now some of the 737-800s have been grounded due to metal fatigue on some bolts where the wing joins the fuselage, not a large amount of frames but enough to keep the press happy.

That sort of things happen all the time - A Manufacturer will issue a advisory and the Airlines will inspect what was advised.

[Yujin 18]

Quartz has an interesting article about how Boeing transformed itself from an innovating and safety driven aeronautical engineering company into a "bean counter" company run by non-engineers to maximize profit over everything else . . . including safety.

The 1997 merger that paved the way for the Boeing 737 Max crisis

https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/

[MrMango 671]

3 hours ago, Yujin said:

Quartz has an interesting article about how Boeing transformed itself from an innovating and safety driven aeronautical engineering company into a "bean counter" company run by non-engineers to maximize profit over everything else . . . including safety.

The 1997 merger that paved the way for the Boeing 737 Max crisis

https://qz.com/1776080/how-the-mcdonnell-douglas-boeing-merger-led-to-the-737-max-crisis/

An interesting opinion with almost no facts.

[Butch 3,456]

737-800 down in Tehran. still under investigation.